Roberto Firmino

[dockers_strike]

Players reach a peak then start to decline. When they do that they either have to reinvent themselves somehow or move on. But as Ive said before, Jurgen is intensely loyal to his players, especially those that have brought rewards to the club.

[Red74]

4 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Players reach a peak then start to decline. When they do that they either have to reinvent themselves somehow or move on. But as Ive said before, Jurgen is intensely loyal to his players, especially those that have brought rewards to the club.

As Paisley said, let a players legs go on another managers watch 

[Jimmy Hills Chin]

Bobby's definitely on the wane but it wouldn't hurt to have a little respect when pointing this out. This player has been instrumental in our recent success and whilst no player is above criticism, a couple of the comments on here are way out of line.

[Aventus]

45 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Players reach a peak then start to decline. When they do that they either have to reinvent themselves somehow or move on. But as I've said before, Jurgen is intensely loyal to his players, especially those that have brought rewards to the club.

The third option is managing their minutes so they are fresh every time they play. 

 

I think this is what we need for Bobby going forwards, he's an incredible player when he turns it on, he has given fucking loads for this club, and he still has plenty more to give, he just can't do it for 180-270 minutes a week anymore 

[stringvest]

There's no point being disrespectful, but the reality is he has not shown any consistent good form for the best part of two years.  We've carried him in several games, and we are not good enough to be doing that any more.  He did have a few good games recently, Klopp and Shankly are similar in lots of ways, including - unfortunately - the way their loyalty to players mean they retain them in the first team long after they should have been replaced.

[niallers]

Only one direct assist in 13 months at home! That's not great reading. Stats aren't everything but still. Poor Bobby. Poor poor Bobby.

[TheHowieLama]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Hills Chin said:

 a little respect 

There's something that the Kop wants you to know

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

He seems a great lad, and has really done well for us at times. But has to go in the summer, for me. Sentiment aside, he's now fucking turd. Can't afford to play him game so he can lose possession or stifle our own attacks repeatedly. It's been going on for far, far too long.

[VladimirIlyich]

23 hours ago, Red74 said:

If ever a locker door reflected a player

 

That locker has been more useful over the past 6 months.

[aRdja]

If he’s to ever start a game again for us it has to be as a number 10 behind a proper striker. I think we owe it to him to give him a run of games there. 

[lebron]

12 minutes ago, aRdja said:

If he’s to ever start a game again for us it has to be as a number 10 behind a proper striker. I think we owe it to him to give him a run of games there. 

So your solution to having Firmino dropping too deep to receive the ball (which is something most complain about these days) is to put him even further towards our own goal?

 

You've been consistent in your agenda to replace Bobby even when he was the main catalyst for our wingers being the goal machines they've been the last few seasons, so no wonder you're at it now that the team is in a big slump.

 

I wrote the following* in the Man City match thread, and even if I would probably be able to express it a bit more eloquently in my first language, I think it's a point worth repeating;

 

*I also want to throw in a word about Firmino, who seems to be the one taking the most of the criticism this season (and last). He's had a few games this season where his touch has let him down more than previous seasons. Problem for him is that when he comes deep these days (which he has always has done to create opposite movements and space for Salah/Mane), it happens 20 yards further from goal than before. This is a consequence of our fear of letting runners in behind/being pushed further from goal. There's almost never a midfielder or full back of ours running in behind him anymore either (a feature of our two previous seasons). This leads to Firmino becoming less effective himself, and his off the ball work being ignored. We've become so much more static and risk-averse after Gomez broke down, it's like watching a different team. 

[aRdja]

10 minutes ago, lebron said:

So your solution to having Firmino dropping too deep to receive the ball (which is something most complain about these days) is to put him even further towards our own goal?

 

You've been consistent in your agenda to replace Bobby even when he was the main catalyst for our wingers being the goal machines they've been the last few seasons, so no wonder you're at it now that the team is in a big slump.

 

I wrote the following* in the Man City match thread, and even if I would probably be able to express it a bit more eloquently in my first language, I think it's a point worth repeating;

 

*I also want to throw in a word about Firmino, who seems to be the one taking the most of the criticism this season (and last). He's had a few games this season where his touch has let him down more than previous seasons. Problem for him is that when he comes deep these days (which he has always has done to create opposite movements and space for Salah/Mane), it happens 20 yards further from goal than before. This is a consequence of our fear of letting runners in behind/being pushed further from goal. There's almost never a midfielder or full back of ours running in behind him anymore either (a feature of our two previous seasons). This leads to Firmino becoming less effective himself, and his off the ball work being ignored. We've become so much more static and risk-averse after Gomez broke down, it's like watching a different team. 

I’ve got no agenda. Bobby’s a good footballer but he’s not a striker. Play him in his natural position. We are in dire need of a presence in the box, and him roaming about isn’t very helpful. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

42 minutes ago, aRdja said:

If he’s to ever start a game again for us it has to be as a number 10 behind a proper striker. I think we owe it to him to give him a run of games there. 

Who is the striker who can play with Salah And Mane? Lewandowski and Harland won’t be coming, who else can work in that system as an out and out striker?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VladimirIlyich]

8 minutes ago, VERBAL DIARRHEA said:

Who is the striker who can play with Salah And Mane? Lewandowski and Harland won’t be coming, who else can work in that system as an out and out striker?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Diogo Jota?

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

1 minute ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Diogo Jota?

Indeed, maybe we could get him.

[3 Stacks]

40 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I’ve got no agenda. Bobby’s a good footballer but he’s not a striker. Play him in his natural position. We are in dire need of a presence in the box, and him roaming about isn’t very helpful. 

Lets be honest, you do have an agenda. You can just admit that, its not a big deal. 

 

The thing I dont like about the Firmino criticism is, hes getting disproportionate blame for our attacking decline when hes not really playing dissimilarly to last year or two years ago. He was part of a successful team playing a certain way and hes still playing that way, except the team isnt winning so now its supposedly a problem. 

 

We can want to replace him all we want, but if we do, it would be a massive change. The current shape is built around him. 

 

And the Jota thing, weve played two games with Jota in place of Firmino, one where Atalanta opened their legs for us and the other against Ajax at Anfield, where we didnt play especially well. Sure well rotate him in for Firmino at times, but theres no indication that front line is markedly better or something well do consistently. 

[Aventus]

3 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

The thing I don't like about the Firmino criticism is, he's getting disproportionate blame for our decline when he's not really playing dissimilarly to last year or two years ago. He was part of a successful team playing a certain way and he's still playing that way, except the team isn't winning so now its supposedly a problem.  

He's been getting criticised for years, this isn't anything new. 

[stringvest]

21 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Lets be honest, you do have an agenda. You can just admit that, its not a big deal. 

 

The thing I dont like about the Firmino criticism is, hes getting disproportionate blame for our attacking decline when hes not really playing dissimilarly to last year or two years ago. He was part of a successful team playing a certain way and hes still playing that way, except the team isnt winning so now its supposedly a problem. 

 

We can want to replace him all we want, but if we do, it would be a massive change. The current shape is built around him. 

 

And the Jota thing, weve played two games with Jota in place of Firmino, one where Atalanta opened their legs for us and the other against Ajax at Anfield, where we didnt play especially well. Sure well rotate him in for Firmino at times, but theres no indication that front line is markedly better or something well do consistently. 

he is playing differently.  Nothing is sticking.  His distribution is terrible, his decision making is consistently wrong, and even his control lets him down far more than it used do.  And he is not winning the ball back through interceptions or tackles like he used to.  He's currently having a net negative effect on the team.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

If only there were foreign players available called Giffiterio and Crakitoma.

We would smash all and sundry!

[Halcyon Days]

Better than the sum of it’s parts describes a Klopp team perfectly and unless we have VVD / Gomez or someone similar then the whole things a pile of wank just going through the motions effecting every position on the pitch, especially Bobby’s. We’ve had one prolific season from the lad in all his time here smattered with golden important match winning fucking killer goals. I’m still backing him until this shit show of a season does one and we have a semblance of a spine running through our team again.

[Barrington Womble]

On 08/02/2021 at 16:40, Scott_M said:

His average position v Brighton.

 

how does this compare through previous seasons? It has felt to me Bobby has been pretty deep for well over a year now, I am just curious to how this average position thing looked when we were pissing the league and perhaps just as interesting in years before that when bobby was a regular scorer. he didn't score at anfield till the final game last season did he? and i really don't remember him being unlucky too often either, he just never looked like scoring - but it didn't matter, because we were beating absolutely everyone. 

[lebron]

40 minutes ago, stringvest said:

he is playing differently.  Nothing is sticking.  His distribution is terrible, his decision making is consistently wrong, and even his control lets him down far more than it used do.  And he is not winning the ball back through interceptions or tackles like he used to.  He's currently having a net negative effect on the team.

I'd say this is the fairest part of the criticism (and it's an important one with our current problems). All the other factors are connected to our teams systematic issues. Him winning the ball back being one of them. You can see he is trying, but when the other midfielders are too occupied with not conceding space, our group pressing (when Bobby is most likely to win the ball or tackle) suffers. Check back to a year or two. I guarantee you will find an example in every single game where Bobby applies pressure along with someone else and surprises the person with the ball. This year, most of his pressing is on his own. How many attackers will win the ball in that situation? Most defenders can't even do it. 

 

As for Ardja's "proper number 9", Salah's and Mane's goals would plummet, and we'd need to have a proper re-shaping of our attack. I guess the current version of Harry Kane would be the most likely to do the same job as Firmino. Those arguing Jota instead of Firmino on a permanent basis might also be surprised by the effect it will have on the team. I'd like him as an alternative, but more to relieve Salah and Mane than Firmino. Unless we change the way we play, which I don't want us to do (at least not when our CB's are back).

[lebron]

45 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

how does this compare through previous seasons? It has felt to me Bobby has been pretty deep for well over a year now, I am just curious to how this average position thing looked when we were pissing the league and perhaps just as interesting in years before that when bobby was a regular scorer. he didn't score at anfield till the final game last season did he? and i really don't remember him being unlucky too often either, he just never looked like scoring - but it didn't matter, because we were beating absolutely everyone. 

 

It's way further back for the entire team I'd guess. Trent and Robbo were almost halfway into the other team's half in several of those charts last season. The CB's were higher as well.

 

The most important thing though is our unwillingness to commit midfielders further forward, which in turn forces Bobby to come further back to collect the ball. He's not a "hold it up" forward. His strengths are his interplay with others and his pressing/reading of the game. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

The midfield definitely needs more creativity, Wijnaldum has no assists in two and a half seasons in the league, Henderson and Fabinho in that time have about ten between them. Thiago can improve on that but he is more about control although he has had decent assists at Bayern. Someone running from midfield with an eye for a pass and a goal would be nice, we all thought it would be Keita.

[3 Stacks]

The "proper #9 thing", I'm all for it if we can find someone who is dangerous in the box, as well as intelligent, technically gifted and unselfish enough to be able to link well with our other goal scorers, but that player's just hard to find. You're talking about a handful of players, or you're talking about finding someone raw who you think could do all that at some point. Andre Silva is having a great season at Frankfurt and he's in that mould. He could be one to watch.

 

But you can't really just drop Haaland, a predatory goal scorer, in the middle of Mané and Salah, two wingers who also want to shoot and score goals and just say "figure it out". Doesn't really work like that.