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Greece


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. "Unless of course "balanced finances" means higher unemployment and lower output than previously."

 

In this case it means not being bankrupt. Slovenia and Slovakia, countries with lower standards of living than Greece were forced to bail Greece out and stand to lose money if it defaults.

 

I know  the situation is complex and it has its history. But thing that  always pissed me off with Greeks is that you just cannot get them to admit that it may be their fault in any way. You ask them about their corrupt political elites that were taking turns in the government for decades, crony capitalism, maybe governments paying certain segments of society above the means in order to extend the "ownership" of the culture of overspending, no, no, no, it's always the Germans, IMF, international financial moguls,they were just piling on more and more debt on the poor unsuspecting Greece.

 

 

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. "Unless of course "balanced finances" means higher unemployment and lower output than previously."

 

 

In this case it means not being bankrupt. Slovenia and Slovakia, countries with lower standards of living than Greece were forced to bail Greece out and stand to lose money if it defaults.

I know  the situation is complex and it has its history. But thing that  always pissed me off with Greeks is that you just cannot get them to admit that it may be their fault in any way. You ask them about their corrupt political elites that were taking turns in the government for decades, crony capitalism, maybe governments paying certain segments of society above the means in order to extend the "ownership" of the culture of overspending, no, no, no, it's always the Germans, IMF, international financial moguls,they were just piling on more and more debt on the poor unsuspecting Greece.

 

You don't think that Greece has the right to sort out its own mess without its creditors forcing their own solution on them? If you fell behind on your mortgage, would you put up with the bank manager moving in and telling you exactly what you can and can't buy for the next 10 years?

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When you've proven again and again to be fiscally irresponsible and already gone cap in hand to the loan sharks for a 150% mortgage. Then, when you've spunked that, re-mortgaged that re-mortgage with am EMF/ ECB bailout you mean?

 

Yeah, I think it's right the EU steps the fuck in to at least try and arrest this utter basket case economy. They're going about it in a terrible way though and should have done this years ago - before it got out of hand and a lot of people died because of it.

 

No-one's coming out of this in a rosy glow. Unless you're off to Greece in August!

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with all that is going on can someone tell me what it means for the future euro rate?

 

it will go down if ................

it will go up if ...........

 

being selfish here but as ive got to pay for my wedding in zante in euros in July every little helps!

 

cheers

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You don't think that Greece has the right to sort out its own mess without its creditors forcing their own solution on them? If you fell behind on your mortgage, would you put up with the bank manager moving in and telling you exactly what you can and can't buy for the next 10 years?

 

If you go bankrupt, that's more or less what happens, isn't it.

 

My good advice to anyone who doesn't want others to dictate their spending is to not borrow billions of pounds of other people's money in the first place, as they tend to get a bit pissy if you don't pay it back when you say you will.

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You don't think that Greece has the right to sort out its own mess without its creditors forcing their own solution on them? If you fell behind on your mortgage, would you put up with the bank manager moving in and telling you exactly what you can and can't buy for the next 10 years?

This is another matter, but, yes absolutely, however, the problem is they are virtually bankrupt, not "behind on their mortgage". I wish Greece could exit euro and probably best the EU at the lowest possible cost for everyone involved. Than Syriza can embark on their non-austerity programme  freely and fully and for what I care, they can end liberal capitalism, or the Greek version of it. Hell, they may even succeed and create a better society, as capitalism doesn't seem to make many people happy, at least since 2008. But not on other people's bail out money: Clear the mess, start with a clean slate and do what ever you want.

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This is another matter, but, yes absolutely, however, the problem is they are virtually bankrupt, not "behind on their mortgage". I wish Greece could exit euro and probably best the EU at the lowest possible cost for everyone involved. Than Syriza can embark on their non-austerity programme  freely and fully and for what I care, they can end liberal capitalism, or the Greek version of it. Hell, they may even succeed and create a better society, as capitalism doesn't seem to make many people happy, at least since 2008. But not on other people's bail out money: Clear the mess, start with a clean slate and do what ever you want.

 

I agree. They should simply fuck the Euro off immediately. 

 

I wish they hadn't bothered fucking about for the last few months keeping up this pretence that the Troika is going to negotiate with them sufficiently. Default, leave the Euro, start again with the actual democratic mandate given to them by the Greek people.

 

Where my view differs with yours is that you appear to be more angry with the Greek population than the Troika that have imposed such measures that has crippled the country, and lined their own pockets.

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I agree. They should simply fuck the Euro off immediately. 

 

I wish they hadn't bothered fucking about for the last few months keeping up this pretence that the Troika is going to negotiate with them sufficiently. Default, leave the Euro, start again with the actual democratic mandate given to them by the Greek people.

 

Where my view differs with yours is that you appear to be more angry with the Greek population than the Troika that have imposed such measures that has crippled the country, and lined their own pockets.

 

Portugal and Spain accepted similar measures, and their economies are now on the up again.

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Portugal and Spain accepted similar measures, and their economies are now on the up again.

 

Yes, the people of Spain are absolutely delighted with their economy. That's why no-one under 30 has a job, a left wing party formed less than 18 months ago is polling at 20% of the vote, and the newly elected mayor of Madrid is sitting in protests at banks.

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I agree. They should simply fuck the Euro off immediately. 

 

I wish they hadn't bothered fucking about for the last few months keeping up this pretence that the Troika is going to negotiate with them sufficiently. Default, leave the Euro, start again with the actual democratic mandate given to them by the Greek people.

 

Where my view differs with yours is that you appear to be more angry with the Greek population than the Troika that have imposed such measures that has crippled the country, and lined their own pockets.

I accept that there is now a political spiel by both negotiating parties trying to call each others bluff, ideological differences etc. I don't believe that radical Left can implement its programme within the EU boundaries, as the EU is a center-left to center-right project and if you have a mandate to do something else, different, more radical, you should step out of these boundaries.

 

Greece is not a Western European society and it pretended to be one, on steroids of cheap euro-borrowing, for years. So I am "angry" that people there do not seem capable of accepting this as the original sin of this mess, or at least a part of the problem, regardless of who lined their own pockets. And many Greek pockets were well lined in the past.

 

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Think we should get Greece debt into context. They owe €323bn, roughly 3.5 times their annual income, or an acceptable risk for a mortgage provider. They are going to default on €1.5bn which is really fuck all in an international context. Other countries would be bailed out without a second thought but Greece is being punished for not towing the line on the IMF's desire to implement austerity

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Think we should get Greece debt into context. They owe €323bn, roughly 3.5 times their annual income, or an acceptable risk for a mortgage provider. They are going to default on €1.5bn which is really fuck all in an international context. Other countries would be bailed out without a second thought but Greece is being punished for not towing the line on the IMF's desire to implement austerity

 

Correct. The IMF has no problem signing off billions to Ukraine's government, or despots in Africa, that will happily syphon off the resources of their country into private hands. The problem with Greece is that they have a left wing government that is slightly less complicit in this (under) selling of the family silver.

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Yes, the people of Spain are absolutely delighted with their economy. That's why no-one under 30 has a job, a left wing party formed less than 18 months ago is polling at 20% of the vote, and the newly elected mayor of Madrid is sitting in protests at banks.

 

Doesn't address my point in any way whatsoever.

 

By any metric, Spain and Portugal are doing better following their adoption of fiscal sanity. You can obfuscate, but them's the facts.

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