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Anny Road

Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

299 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      242
    • No
      57


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3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

http://www.poverty.ac.uk/report-europe-low-pay/underclass-low-wage-service-jobs-europe

 

Anything of note to say about the above angry? I realise poor people are not your bag but take a wild stab.

You really don't read the links you post, do you? I'll summarise it for you: low-pay is a widespread problem and the European Commission commissioned a report into how bad it is and what can be done about it. Nothing in that link suggests the EU are the bad guys; quite the reverse.

 

Any chance of you letting us know how you plan to tackle poverty by shrinking the economy and reducing workers' rights?

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12 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Shocking misrepresentation.  Honestly, I've never seen anything like it. 

 

I need to get over the shock by lying on a massive pile of Euros and wanking over nudey pics of Milton Friedman.

Oh dear It probably sounded funny in your head.

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1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

 

I've read it and posted on it before. You're the one who seems content that the report shows the poor once again suffer.  You and Rico; two peas in a pod.

It's only two sentences long and you clearly still don't understand it. I suppose it's asking too much to expect you to grasp the longer articles that you post.

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15 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

http://www.poverty.ac.uk/report-europe-low-pay/underclass-low-wage-service-jobs-europe

 

Anything of note to say about the above angry? I realise poor people are not your bag but take a wild stab.

Did you even read that? I've read it twice and my take on it is the EU recognise a problem and are trying to address it. It doesn't say it's a problem of the EU's making so I don't understand your point.

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6 minutes ago, No2 said:

Did you even read that? I've read it twice and my take on it is the EU recognise a problem and are trying to address it. It doesn't say it's a problem of the EU's making so I don't understand your point.

Yes I did, the report was commisend by the EU so fair enough. Whilst the EU always seem good at talking the talk they are not so at walking the walk. The report ends in 2010 I think, the EU policy of pushing a 10 year policy of austerity caused untold damage and imo led to Brexit. Although I may be wrong.

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10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Yes I did, the report was commisend by the EU so fair enough. Whilst the EU always seem good at talking the talk they are not so at walking the walk. The report ends in 2010 I think, the EU policy of pushing a 10 year policy of austerity caused untold damage and imo led to Brexit. Although I may be wrong.

The EU policy of austerity doesn't exist.  The Eurozone rules require members to stick to agreed limits on national debt. Some national governments try to do this through austerity.  The more successful ones (such as Portugal) do the opposite, implementing progressive economic policies. 

 

Austerity in the UK has always been a political choice of the UK Government. And Brexit is a vote to give them more power over us. 

 

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Capitalism, Neo liberalism. Mass inequality.  A low wage workforce of large swathes of commodities drifting around the continent.

 

Only the well off or the selfish get annoyed when people reject it.

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3 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The EU policy of austerity doesn't exist.  The Eurozone rules require members to stick to agreed limits on national debt. Some national governments try to do this through austerity.  The more successful ones (such as Portugal) do the opposite, implementing progressive economic policies. 

 

Austerity in the UK has always been a political choice of the UK Government. And Brexit is a vote to give them more power over us. 

 

Angry talks with a civil tounge. I'm shocked.

 

You're post is only partly true I'm afraid angry. Your point on the UK is very much correct. Your point on the EU is only partly true and does not paint the whole picture. The EU economists have pushed austerity for over a decade. Greece is an obvious example.

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Just now, Gnasher said:

Angry talks with a civil tounge. I'm shocked.

 

You're post is only partly true I'm afraid angry. Your point on the UK is very much correct. Your point on the EU is only partly true and does not paint the whole picture. The EU economists have pushed austerity for over a decade. Greece is an obvious example.

Sorry just to pick up on that  when Macron did his big interview over here he admitted the EU had been wrong in its fiscal constraints.  I havnt got link at hand but even he recognized the damage done.

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1 minute ago, TK421 said:

Gnasher, do you want to sever all ties with Europe?  I mean, what is the ideal end game for you?

No. Probably the best solution is to kick into the long grass until we get a change of govt. Whilst this is the EU thread our welfare ultimately depends on the death and destruction of the conservative party, it's the ultimate goal. After that I believe we'll be fine outside the EU.

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2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

No. Probably the best solution is to kick into the long grass until we get a change of govt. Whilst this is the EU thread our welfare ultimately depends on the death and destruction of the conservative party, it's the ultimate goal. After that I believe we'll be fine outside the EU.

Right, but what does "outside the EU" mean?  Because if you're not prepared to define that it detracts from your argument somewhat.  

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7 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Right, but what does "outside the EU" mean?  Because if you're not prepared to define that it detracts from your argument somewhat.  

 

The custom union can stay, im personallynot that arsed. The single market can fuck off; just a corporate squeeze 

 

The bigger picture is the future of the EU itself. It's shot it's bolt. I can't see it surviving. If that French socialist has got in (polls put him miles ahead of macron) but the  center left didn't back him) he advocated France withdrawal from the EU, it would have been over for the EU there and then, it could not have survived the lose of both France and britain. Italy is looking fucked. Spain could have a constitutional crisis very soon. Greece is still in austerity grip. The far right are rearing up. I'm not comfortable with the EU expansion either. I'm not a lover of a single currency. I'm not comfortable with their ethos. It's time imo to disband it at least losen it's grip.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

Can't believe Gnasher isn't into decent drugs, decent beer, decent scran and boss foreign birds.

 

Can only hope he is into ersatz HP sauce on rats. 

 

Love them all. I'm just not that fond of goldman Sachs pumping my veins with complacency.

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1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

 

Love them all. I'm just not that fond of goldman Sachs pumping my veins with complacency.

Get off your fat arse and do something then you lazy blert. I advise EU first while you still can rather than going full on WTO. 

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8 hours ago, Gnasher said:

No. Probably the best solution is to kick into the long grass until we get a change of govt. Whilst this is the EU thread our welfare ultimately depends on the death and destruction of the conservative party, it's the ultimate goal. After that I believe we'll be fine outside the EU.

And you plan to achieve the death of the Tory Party by strengthening their racist right-wing, handing them more power, taking rights away from millions of workers in the UK and giving our economy a stiff boot in the stones.

 

It's an interesting tactic.

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8 hours ago, Gnasher said:

I got as far as the second paragraph. *

 

If the whole article is based on that falsehood  - the same error that all of your destructive wrongness is based on - then there's no point going over the same ground again. 

 

The EU is not essentially neoliberal or pro-austerity. For half of its history it's been a broadly Social Democratic institution.  It's economic and political direction is set by Member States.  For the last 3 decades or so, the trend among Western national governments  - including those of the Member States  - has been towards neoliberalism (and its corollary, austerity). The EU, in that time, has followed this.

 

For Socialists, a much better outcome would have been a narrow Remain victory - which would have kept the Tories divided - followed by a Corbyn General Election victory, allowing a left-wing Labour Party to galvanise and inspire European Socialists in a post-Merkel, post-Macron EU. 

 

That's obviously now impossible, but, still... Cameron is wallowing on a massive pile of cash away from the political limelight, so it's probably all worth it.

 

 

 

 

*Edit - I've read it now. I was right to judge it by the second paragraph.  The author appears to think that EU history started in 2010. Also, since this article was written, the Portuguese government has reversed austerity  - with tacit support from the EU. 

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8 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

The custom union can stay, im personallynot that arsed. The single market can fuck off; just a corporate squeeze 

 

The bigger picture is the future of the EU itself. It's shot it's bolt. I can't see it surviving. If that French socialist has got in (polls put him miles ahead of macron) but the  center left didn't back him) he advocated France withdrawal from the EU, it would have been over for the EU there and then, it could not have survived the lose of both France and britain. Italy is looking fucked. Spain could have a constitutional crisis very soon. Greece is still in austerity grip. The far right are rearing up. I'm not comfortable with the EU expansion either. I'm not a lover of a single currency. I'm not comfortable with their ethos. It's time imo to disband it at least losen it's grip.

 

 

Please read a history book.

 

Then look across Europe at the kind of people who are shouting loudest for an end to the EU;  then ask yourself if you really want to stand alongside them.

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10 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Do you think that no working class people have benefited?

 

Come on. You're better than this. Gnasher deals in strawmen and  black and white, nuance-free false dichotomies. That's because he's thick. You're not. 

I can see how it is perceived as a great benefit to be able to work wherever you like across the continent. However this benefit is a byproduct of not the raison d'etre for the introduction of the policy.

 

German manufacturing needs 200,000 unskilled workers, bang here come the Polish. Poles get paid, industry gets its workers. Everyone is happy. The reason for the policy is not to make the Polish happy it is to satisfy the needs of industry.

 

For more developed countries with a higher average wage the benefit is limited to high skilled workers only.

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32 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

I can see how it is perceived as a great benefit to be able to work wherever you like across the continent. However this benefit is a byproduct of not the raison d'etre for the introduction of the policy.

 

German manufacturing needs 200,000 unskilled workers, bang here come the Polish. Poles get paid, industry gets its workers. Everyone is happy. The reason for the policy is not to make the Polish happy it is to satisfy the needs of industry.

 

For more developed countries with a higher average wage the benefit is limited to high skilled workers only.

For decades, the German economy relied on cheap and exploitable Turkish immigrants. Then bang here come the Poles - with equal citizenship rights, making it harder to exploit them.

 

The bottom line is that political and economic decisions are hardly ever made for just one reason: free movement of persons in the EU has benefited bosses and it has also benefited millions of workers and their families. 

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10 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

For decades, the German economy relied on cheap and exploitable Turkish immigrants. Then bang here come the Poles - with equal citizenship rights, making it harder to exploit them.

 

The bottom line is that political and economic decisions are hardly ever made for just one reason: free movement of persons in the EU has benefited bosses and it has also benefited millions of workers and their families. 

Does it benefit them? Making fathers leave their families in order to find work must have a detrimental long term effect upon the society from where they originate. Short term yet I get it, Polish families have food on the table but long term what are the effects on the Polish economy.

Then all of a sudden as now there is a downturn in the German economy, go home lads. To what? An economy based on exporting labour. That is not sustainable.

I understand the obvious benefits for everyone but to me it seems like all is good when the sun shines but when the shit hits the fan it will be the migrants workers that take it up the arse.

 

Why not invest in Poland.

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