Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Section_31]

22 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The irony is that both Brexit and the Trump presidency are massively damaging to working class people  - and the promoters of both are, again, the rich cunts who stand to gain at our expense.

Yep, don't disagree with that.

[magicrat]

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

He's not thick.

 

He's a liar who is banking on everyone else being thick.

That kinda makes him thick mate

[Barrington Womble]

for me it is all more simple than this. with the mass EU immigration, we were constantly told (regardless of economic benefit and many people saw the opposite in the personal lives) that we had no control. and that was true. it underpinned the whole anti-EU immigration sentiment in my opinion. if we'd have had controls, that even in effect were still free movement as the controls could be very loose, it would have been more difficult to paint the "it's all them in europe telling us what to do" routine. personally i am fine with free movement, but i see clearly how it got us in the shit we are in now. 

 

As for peoples comments about immigrants giving the country an economic benefit - again, that's sound, unless of course it's your job you feel is being undervalued. ultimately personal circumstance is more important to the majority of peope than the national economy and they will vote accordingly. 

[Section_31]

6 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

for me it is all more simple than this. with the mass EU immigration, we were constantly told (regardless of economic benefit and many people saw the opposite in the personal lives) that we had no control. and that was true. it underpinned the whole anti-EU immigration sentiment in my opinion. if we'd have had controls, that even in effect were still free movement as the controls could be very loose, it would have been more difficult to paint the "it's all them in europe telling us what to do" routine. personally i am fine with free movement, but i see clearly how it got us in the shit we are in now. 

 

As for peoples comments about immigrants giving the country an economic benefit - again, that's sound, unless of course it's your job you feel is being undervalued. ultimately personal circumstance is more important to the majority of peope than the national economy and they will vote accordingly. 

It's funny, I genuinely don't think most people have a problem with migration per se, but with the fact they're not allowed to have a problem with it. 

 

For some reason in recent years, immigration debates have been conflated into ideas of class and intelligence. If you've been island hopping in Thailand for three months and are a citizen of the world you seem to think you've got carte blanche to look down on those that haven't. I think people just got fed up with that and part of that backlash came through with Brexit.  

[Trumo]

1 minute ago, Section_31 said:

It's funny, I genuinely don't think most people have a problem with migration per se, but with the fact they're not allowed to have a problem with it. 

 

For some reason in recent years, immigration debates have been conflated into ideas of class and intelligence. If you've been island hopping in Thailand for three months and are a citizen of the world you seem to think you've got carte blanche to look down on those that haven't. I think people just got fed up with that and part of that backlash came through with Brexit.  

 

Harsh on TheBitch that.

[skend04]

You just have to look at the language used to know people have a problem with immigrants. English retirees in the Costas are expats. People coming to the UK are immigrants, hoardes, scroungers or illegals even if they're here legally.  "Just out to steal our jobs."

 

Ridiculous that white men think they aren't allowed to discuss immigration when that's all you fucking do. We've got about a thousand pages on here for starters.

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The whole "take back control " thing was a masterpiece of misdirection.  In the real world, people had lost control to the political class; the same political class successfully got themselves off the hook bý framing the loss of control in terms of the UK losing control to the EU.  The arrogant pricks never realised that such a lie could return to bite their arses.

[Strontium]

17 minutes ago, skend04 said:

You just have to look at the language used to know people have a problem with immigrants. English retirees in the Costas are expats. People coming to the UK are immigrants, hoardes, scroungers or illegals even if they're here legally.  "Just out to steal our jobs."

 

Hey, Vaclav the surgeon from Prague has absolutely stolen a job off Gary from Carshalton, who has GCSE grade D in geography and metalwork.

[skend04]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Hey, Vaclav the surgeon from Prague has absolutely stolen a job off Gary from Carshalton, who has GCSE grade D in geography and metalwork.

I'd be pissed like Gary too. Ideal candidate to work out where everything is and can solder a mean joint in broken fibulas.

[Numero Veinticinco]

12 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Hey, Vaclav the surgeon from Prague has absolutely stolen a job off Gary from Carshalton, who has GCSE grade D in geography and metalwork.

No, but if he’s a builder then he might well have had people undercut him. Now, I’m not saying he’s right, but I can understand. Either way, sneering at these people isn’t going to help. 

[Anny Road]

18 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Hey, Vaclav the surgeon from Prague has absolutely stolen a job off Gary from Carshalton, who has GCSE grade D in geography and metalwork.

it's pompous fuckwits with attitudes like that that made at lot of people say fuck you then.

[SasaS]

With immigration, you are forgetting an impact on the sense of identity, a way of life, which is stronger than economic and class considerations. With EU, people in most countries would probably vote out, because they see the EU as a threat to the concept of a nation-state and people believe in this concept far strongly than is usually accepted. On top of that, EU is seen as the establishment, fat cats in Brussels, and there is the real problem of representation in decision making, because representatives are chosen by electorates you don't have a shared experience with, in the sense and to the extent you do have within your own country. One of the main problems is also that most people don't really understand how EU works.
 

Before the last financial crisis, EU had a real problem in countries where significant changes in the Union had to be approved through referenda, despite the fact Ireland is usually listed as an example of a single biggest beneficiary from the membership, they rejected the Lisbon Treaty and almost plunged the EU in a serious crisis, until they were asked to vote again. Similar thing happened previously in Holland. Last member, Croatia, despite excruciatingly long accession talks and clear benefits from membership had to change its referendum rules to make sure membership is pushed over the line.

 

In UK, there is also a long held belief that atomization in Europe is beneficial to British interests and a centuries-old doctrine of preventing the emergence of a European super-power (as soon as the power emerged, Britain would side with the main challenger against it). What some in the Brexit camp hope is not only for the UK to be free from the EU restraints, they want the Union as a project abandoned. If the UK stays out and the EU remains strong, Brexit does not make too much sense.  

[Barrington Womble]

58 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

It's funny, I genuinely don't think most people have a problem with migration per se, but with the fact they're not allowed to have a problem with it. 

 

For some reason in recent years, immigration debates have been conflated into ideas of class and intelligence. If you've been island hopping in Thailand for three months and are a citizen of the world you seem to think you've got carte blanche to look down on those that haven't. I think people just got fed up with that and part of that backlash came through with Brexit.  

there are people who do have an issue with migration though. on the week of the vote, i was talking to a bloke from south london (my mates father in law) who told me he would be voting to leave the EU to "get all the fucking pakis out". mad and ironic. but for me it illustrates part of the arguments was racist. part of the argument was about perceived lack of control as i mentioned in my last post. all these things add up and take any one of them away and we don't have 52% who vote to leave. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

17 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

there are people who do have an issue with migration though. on the week of the vote, i was talking to a bloke from south london (my mates father in law) who told me he would be voting to leave the EU to "get all the fucking pakis out". mad and ironic. but for me it illustrates part of the arguments was racist. part of the argument was about perceived lack of control as i mentioned in my last post. all these things add up and take any one of them away and we don't have 52% who vote to leave. 

That'll be Farridge's target audience, when he launched his nakedly racist "Breaking point" poster (which did not depict a single EU citizen) on the morning of a day that ended with a far-right, racist terrorist murdering an MP, in the name of putting Britain first.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

34 minutes ago, SasaS said:

With immigration, you are forgetting an impact on the sense of identity, a way of life, which is stronger than economic and class considerations. With EU, people in most countries would probably vote out, because they see the EU as a threat to the concept of a nation-state and people believe in this concept far strongly than is usually accepted. On top of that, EU is seen as the establishment, fat cats in Brussels, and there is the real problem of representation in decision making, because representatives are chosen by electorates you don't have a shared experience with, in the sense and to the extent you do have within your own country. One of the main problems is also that most people don't really understand how EU works.
 

Before the last financial crisis, EU had a real problem in countries where significant changes in the Union had to be approved through referenda, despite the fact Ireland is usually listed as an example of a single biggest beneficiary from the membership, they rejected the Lisbon Treaty and almost plunged the EU in a serious crisis, until they were asked to vote again. Similar thing happened previously in Holland. Last member, Croatia, despite excruciatingly long accession talks and clear benefits from membership had to change its referendum rules to make sure membership is pushed over the line.

 

In UK, there is also a long held belief that atomization in Europe is beneficial to British interests and a centuries-old doctrine of preventing the emergence of a European super-power (as soon as the power emerged, Britain would side with the main challenger against it). What some in the Brexit camp hope is not only for the UK to be free from the EU restraints, they want the Union as a project abandoned. If the UK stays out and the EU remains strong, Brexit does not make too much sense.  

I'll never understand how having Polish or Spanish workmates is supposed to undermine my sense of identity. 

 

I've not seen any evidence that people in Europe would vote to leave the EU.  

 

I'm also not convinced that people in mainland Europe are as wedded to the idea of the nation state as us insular Brits. Many European borders have been redrawn plenty of times in the last century or so and plenty of countries have minority nationalities who really don't want to be forced into a nation that isn't theirs.

 

Just to be clear about the Lisbon Treaty - once the Irish rejected it, it was amended. They weren't asked to vote again on the same thing, but on a version of the Treaty which had been changed to make it acceptable.  As an example of popular democracy, it's pretty impressive. 

 

Finally, I  suspect that most people in Europe don't share the dream of the British  (and European) far right of destroying the EU.  The experience of WWII and Europe's subsequent wars is a lot closer to them than it is to our damp, grey archipelago.  I suspect that a lot of people in mainland Europe are not so dismissive of the EU's vital role in maintaining peace between Member States. 

[Section_31]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Hey, Vaclav the surgeon from Prague has absolutely stolen a job off Gary from Carshalton, who has GCSE grade D in geography and metalwork.

not like you SD to deliberately misrepresent an argument to get a rise. 

 

Doctors have never, ever, in the history of planet earth, ever, found it hard to enter a country to find work. Just ask half the gold coast who probably would have been your GP had they not decided to head down under for better money and working conditions. 

 

 

[Manny]

For the disenfranchised, Brexit is just a gamble with someone else's money - if you're already skint and ignored, you've not really got a lot to lose. Then along comes Farage and his ilk, pouring more blame on an already oft-blamed bogeyman, and you're challenged to reject the status quo, knowing that:

• If Farage and his ilk are right and there's £350m extra for the NHS, economic boom due to favourable trade deals with the rest of the world and fewer brown people in the streets or whatever, well then that's great
• If they're wrong, you're not really any worse off but the people who've ignored you for so long and profited at your expense will - relatively speaking - feel the pinch more than you (hard to worry too much when you go from nothing to nothing)

The worry I have is that these people are wrong - that it can and will get much worse, for all of us. But there was a gambler's optimism at the heart of it.

[Section_31]

 

 

This was doing the rounds a lot after Brexit. Designed to plug into all the 'if you voted Brexit you're shortsighted and racist and you're a turkey that voted for Christmas' spiel. 

 

But my eye was instead drawn to their points of origin. 

 

Greece, Spain, Ireland. They've all been part of struggling economies for which being part of the EU has not only not helped solve this crisis, but in some senses has exacerbated it. Also, that ease of movement has no doubt left hospitals in those countries short of staff, as many Polish town have been starved of young people. That's the other side of the coin to free movement isn't it? An influx of youth and skills, but what's left behind? 

 

 

https://healthcare-in-europe.com/en/news/spanish-doctors-nurses-emigrate-for-work.html

 

https://www.thenationalherald.com/210303/doctor-exodus-leaving-some-greek-hospitals-understaffed/

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eight-out-of-10-trainee-doctors-thinking-of-leaving-ireland-to-work-1.3234757

 

[Section_31]

6 minutes ago, Manny said:

For the disenfranchised, Brexit is just a gamble with someone else's money - if you're already skint and ignored, you've not really got a lot to lose. Then along comes Farage and his ilk, pouring more blame on an already oft-blamed bogeyman, and you're challenged to reject the status quo, knowing that:

• If Farage and his ilk are right and there's £350m extra for the NHS, economic boom due to favourable trade deals with the rest of the world and fewer brown people in the streets or whatever, well then that's great
• If they're wrong, you're not really any worse off but the people who've ignored you for so long and profited at your expense will - relatively speaking - feel the pinch more than you (hard to worry too much when you go from nothing to nothing)

The worry I have is that these people are wrong - that it can and will get much worse, for all of us. But there was a gambler's optimism at the heart of it.

You touched on something that's absolutely spot on there. 

 

Ten years from now, whether we're in Europe or not, these poor communities will be NO different at all. 

 

If the UK joined the United Federation of Planets and the door was opened to an unlimited supply of money and resources, these people still wouldn't see any of it. 

 

It's the people at the top who make the deals and reap  the benefits, everything else and everybody else is just dead weight. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

For anyone who still thinks that Brexit means an escape from neoliberalism. 

 

 

[SasaS]

46 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I'll never understand how having Polish or Spanish workmates is supposed to undermine my sense of identity. 

 

I've not seen any evidence that people in Europe would vote to leave the EU.  

 

I'm also not convinced that people in mainland Europe are as wedded to the idea of the nation state as us insular Brits. Many European borders have been redrawn plenty of times in the last century or so and plenty of countries have minority nationalities who really don't want to be forced into a nation that isn't theirs.

 

Just to be clear about the Lisbon Treaty - once the Irish rejected it, it was amended. They weren't asked to vote again on the same thing, but on a version of the Treaty which had been changed to make it acceptable.  As an example of popular democracy, it's pretty impressive. 

 

Finally, I  suspect that most people in Europe don't share the dream of the British  (and European) far right of destroying the EU.  The experience of WWII and Europe's subsequent wars is a lot closer to them than it is to our damp, grey archipelago.  I suspect that a lot of people in mainland Europe are not so dismissive of the EU's vital role in maintaining peace between Member States. 

Spanish and Polish workmates will also live in your neighbourhood and this will change your way of life, your community and this will have an impact on your sense of identity. It's not entirely rational, it's more emotional, and emotions are often what leads people to make decisions. With immigration, it's not just workplace, it's the entire picture. If there is a sudden big influx of members on this forum from a single foreign country for example, and they begin influencing the atmosphere on the forum, you would probably feel less at home here, it might at first be interesting but lets say they bring different values and political views, topics you don't care about, inside jokes, disrespect elements of the forum ethos (I'm not saying the immigrant do all that, I am trying to paint a picture how you can feel threatened or even squeezed out from somewhere you feel is your internet home of sorts, part of your identity) you would soon start feeling things were much better when they weren't here.

 

On the nation state and mainland Europe, I think there is no difference between the UK and the rest of Europe. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how strong the pro-EU sentiment actually is in the UK, although some of it does not have to be about the EU, it may have elements of other divides.

 

Wars - this is important, but it does not have a huge role in people's perception, it may have played a part in the 50s and the 60s, peace is now taken for granted.

 

The main difference is the history of Euro-scepticism in the UK, how much of it stems from the distrust of the continent, which is a political phenomenon unique to Britain (island isolationism, etc)

 

Lisbon Treaty, yes it was amended, but it was neither rejected nor accepted because of that, it was largely symbolic both times. Rather than being a triumph of democracy, it was a lesson learned, avoid asking the people to make important decisions regarding the EU, because there is a serious deficiency of information.

[Strontium]

26 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

 

This was doing the rounds a lot after Brexit. Designed to plug into all the 'if you voted Brexit you're shortsighted and racist and you're a turkey that voted for Christmas' spiel. 

 

But my eye was instead drawn to their points of origin. 

 

Greece, Spain, Ireland. They've all been part of struggling economies for which being part of the EU has not only not helped solve this crisis, but in some senses has exacerbated it. Also, that ease of movement has no doubt left hospitals in those countries short of staff, as many Polish town have been starved of young people. That's the other side of the coin to free movement isn't it? An influx of youth and skills, but what's left behind?

 

I put the desires of individuals above the desires of the state. If someone wants to leave their home country for a better job abroad, that's their business. The impact on the place they're leaving is neither here nor there. We're not feudal serfs any more. We owe our "masters" nothing.

[Anny Road]

Its fine for someone like SD to pontificate on the benefits of the EU and how leave voters are all thick racists.

Coming from a safe stable middle class environment, with access to good schools, university, employment and stability.

 

Try telling Terry, who left school at 15 and grew up on a council estate surrounded by smack heads with an unemployed father and an alcoholic mother, he is thick racist for not understanding the macro economic benefits of immigration.

[skend04]

20 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

I put the desires of individuals above the desires of the state. If someone wants to leave their home country for a better job abroad, that's their business. The impact on the place they're leaving is neither here nor there. We're not feudal serfs any more. We owe our "masters" nothing.

The irony is that on a nation by nation basis more Brits have used Freedom of Movement to find work or a life elsewhere than any other nationality.  But yeah only the Eastern Europeans want to move...

 

 

 

[Strontium]

15 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

Its fine for someone like SD to pontificate on the benefits of the EU and how leave voters are all thick racists.

Coming from a safe stable middle class environment, with access to good schools, university, employment and stability.

 

Try telling Terry, who left school at 15 and grew up on a council estate surrounded by smack heads with an unemployed father and an alcoholic mother, he is thick racist for not understanding the macro economic benefits of immigration.

 

Terry should be thanking immigrants for coming here, getting jobs and paying the taxes that sustain his benefits.