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Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

267 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      214
    • No
      53


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The problem is the Tories, that's the real alpha and omega of the problem.

 

The referendum was called to quash the infighting that's riddled it for decades. Both leave and remain were fronted by Tories and both factions resorted to dirty tricks, bluster and hyperbole to obfuscate any real debate. The leave campaign Tories especially didn't even care about leaving, they did it to knife Cameron in the back, then knifed each other in the back.

 

Once it was done, they then installed leading leavers in high positions who again instigated machinations aimed at furthering their own private agendas, destroying from word go any possibility of an orderly and good-natured exit from the EU.

 

How Corbyn, the bloke from Wetherspoons, or some retired ship builder from Tyneside ever managed to take even a portion of the blame for any of this shit is truly, utterly mindblowing and testimony to how our bought and paid for media skewers debates in the direction it's told.

 

The Tories were the beginning, middle and end of this debacle. As they are for most things bad about this country. They'll do anything, sell anything, burn anything, from Northern Ireland peace to social cohesion, to further their own goals.

 

This is what happens when your political philosophy is based entirely around 'you'. You're constantly working angles, constantly and instinctively scouting every situation for how it can benefit you and only you. If Tories were Roman soldiers they wouldn't be able to form Testudo. One would get a javelin through the head and the rest would run away to Anglessey and blame the druids.

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Well well. 

 

The Campaign For A People's Vote On Brexit Has Descended Into Infighting And Splits

The Labour Party is increasingly being turned off a second referendum because of the internal rows between leading Remainers, MPs have told BuzzFeed News.

Posted on Jan 22, 2019, 4:47:47 PM GMT
 
 

With just over two months to go until the UK is due to leave the European Union, the campaign for a second Brexit referendum is deeply divided over how to achieve its goal, multiple sources on the campaign have told BuzzFeed News.

 

Pro-Remain MPs and officials on the People’s Vote campaign are split on the overarching strategy of how to secure a public vote, on campaign events and tactics, whether People’s Vote should run the Remain campaign if a second referendum is called, and over the actions and motivations of its leading politicians, the sources said.

The ongoing internal wrangling is making it less likely that the Labour Party will ultimately back a public vote, a shadow minister and a senior Labour backbencher told BuzzFeed News.

 

The principal division among People’s Vote advocates is over when to begin their main push for a second referendum, a disagreement that has dominated the weekly meetings of the Grassroots Coordinating Group chaired by Labour MP Chuka Umunna for months.

 

People’s Vote MPs, including Tories Sarah Wollaston and Phillip Lee, and Labour’s Paul Williams, are seeking to table an amendment to the government’s motion next Tuesday that would formally call for a public vote. Lee is said to be determined to proceed with the amendment next week despite attempts by colleagues to dissuade him today.

 

Senior officials on the campaign including its chair Roland Rudd oppose tabling the amendment so soon, believing they would benefit from a more patient strategy.

 

 

“Chuka [Umunna], Wollaston and others have been pushing since before Christmas to put a marker down for a referendum as soon as possible, put forward the amendment at the earliest opportunity, arguing it doesn’t matter if we lose, we can have another go at it,” a People’s Vote source told BuzzFeed News. A spokesperson in Umunna’s office said he is “not of a fixed position on the timing of a People’s Vote amendment”.

 

The plan for an imminent amendment is being resisted by strategists on the campaign. When MPs privately floated tabling the second referendum amendment at the meaningful vote on the Brexit deal, they were “overruled” by senior officials at a meeting in which “voices were raised”, according to a source present.

 

The officials opposed to tabling the amendment argued they would lose the vote and demonstrate that there is not currently a majority in parliament for a second referendum, showing their hand and throwing away any momentum for the campaign. One senior source on the campaign said tabling the amendment now would be “stupid” and that the campaign had "lost control of its MPs".

 

Instead, they have called for a “last man standing” policy, in which the People’s Vote campaign focuses on “knocking off the table” other options such as a no-deal Brexit and the so-called Norway plus proposal for a soft Brexit. Tory MP Nick Boles, who backs the Norway plan, has accused People’s Vote backers Alastair Campbell and Tom Baldwin of running a “scorched earth approach” against supporters of a soft Brexit. A Labour MP who supports the Norway model told BuzzFeed News that they were being "pummelled into submission" by the People's Vote campaign.

 

When Wollaston revealed plans of her amendment to the press on Tuesday, rival pro-EU MPs Caroline Lucas, Jo Swinson, and Bridget Phillipson used a People’s Vote event to slap down her proposal and call for a delay. “I want to make sure that when we get to the point of having a vote on securing a referendum, it is at the point when we have the greatest prospect of success,” Phillipson said.

 

A senior source on the campaign confirmed the internal conflict. “There is a genuine disagreement on what to do. It has not been resolved and may not be resolved,” they said, adding that the campaign would never be able to “centrally enforce unanimity”.

 

 

A spokesperson for the People’s Vote campaign said: “It is up to MPs what amendments they table and when. A People’s Vote will probably not secure a majority in the House of Commons until every Brexit option has been exhausted but that there will be multiple opportunities in Parliament to give the public the final say when it has become clear this is the only way forward.”

 

The second significant split within People’s Vote is over whether it should attempt to run the Remain campaign if there is a second referendum.

The campaign’s data, which according to two sources includes an email list of more than 750,000 people, is held by Open Britain, the successor to Britain Stronger In Europe, the official Remain campaign at the 2016 referendum.

Many senior figures at People’s Vote believe they should lead the Remain campaign at a second vote. “It would be inconceivable that a lot of the same people would not be involved,” one said.

 

But other second referendum campaigners are adamant that the politicians and strategists at People’s Vote should not be anywhere near another Remain campaign. “There is absolutely no way the Blairite faction can be allowed to run the campaign at a second referendum,” said one prominent pro-Remain campaigner for a public vote, adding: “We’d lose 70-30”.

An official on the People’s Vote campaign agreed: “The next Remain campaign would have to be broader and not led by MPs. But there is obviously a difference of opinion over that”.

 

The day-to-day activities of People’s Vote MPs have also caused tensions. A Conservative source said the launch of a new second referendum campaign called Right To Vote by Tory MPs Philip Lee, Heidi Allen, and Sam Gyimah last week was not approved by People’s Vote. They said it was viewed as hubristic on the part of Lee. The source added that there has been a breakdown of control within the campaign and questions internally about its strategy in recent weeks.

 

Meanwhile, the decision last week of 71 Labour MPs to announce their support for a second referendum at an event attended by only 36 MPs infuriated senior campaign officials, who felt that publicly revealing how few Labour MPs back the campaign was a strategic blunder.

 

Another fissure has emerged over the future of the campaign after a second referendum. According to several campaign sources, a number of People’s Vote MPs see it as a vehicle for setting up a new centrist party.

 

The sources said Chuka Umunna was widely viewed on the campaign and among Labour colleagues as harbouring ambitions to form a new party, and that MPs keen on the idea have attempted to use the People’s Vote campaign to launch attacks on Corbyn and the Labour Party’s Brexit policy.

 

Umunna’s spokesperson insisted the idea he is using People’s Vote to start a new political party was “nonsense”, adding: “Those who suggest that the People’s Vote campaign is being used to launch a new political party do so because they are against cross-party working and prefer an outdated style of tribal politics.”

 

Those exploring forming a new party are opposed by other senior campaign figures. Tony Blair, Campbell, and Baldwin are not using People Vote as a forerunner to a new party and have been “trying to calm down the attacks” on the Labour Party, according to a senior source on the campaign. Rudd, meanwhile, has argued that People’s Vote needs to work with the Labour leadership to convince them to back a second referendum.

 

Another source on the campaign said People’s Vote had attempted to expand its board with a series of non-MP appointments to make it “more diverse” in recent weeks, with the aim of blocking MPs from using it to establish a new party. These appointments have caused a “fight” with MPs, the source said.

 

Other rows have broken out over the involvement of senior figures seen as toxic by campaign colleagues. When Blair appeared on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme last week, Michael Chessum, who leads the Another Europe Is Possible campaign for a public vote, tweeted: “Oh great. I hear Tony Blair has been put up on the Today programme again as the voice of People's Vote. Why don't we all just give up and go home?”

 

Rudd’s decision to appear on the programme live from Davos on Tuesday morning caused disbelief among colleagues who feared the appearance made the campaign look out of touch.

The issues with the People’s Vote campaign are not helping to convince Labour MPs to back a second referendum.

 

The shadow housing minister Melanie Onn announced on Monday that she would resign from the Labour frontbench if Corbyn backed a public vote. "I am not in favour of a People's Vote and will not vote for it. If it comes before parliament as it is expected to in the next few days/weeks, I will instead vote for a better Labour deal,” she said.

 

At a meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party last night, one MP told the room that if Labour endorsed a second referendum it was in danger of going the same way as Scottish Labour Party, which haemorrhaged support after the independence referendum in 2014.

 

A shadow minister told BuzzFeed News: “The second referendum campaign has totally overplayed its hand and is driving more Labour MPs to strongly oppose it. There are more and more of us on the frontbench saying to each other that we just will not support a second referendum.”

 

They added: “The mood on the backbenches is shifting too. Last night’s PLP had a lot of colleagues coming out and saying no second referendum and instead let’s find a way that brings the country together and lets us get on with dealing with the issues we actually got into politics for.”

Labour MP Lucy Powell told BuzzFeed News she did not rule out supporting a second referendum if all other options were exhausted, but that colleagues were being turned off the idea.

 

“We’ve passed peak People’s Vote,” she said. “They’ve done a really good job of getting what was really a very far out there proposition and turning it into a mainstream idea that people are calling for. But since conference, I think two things have happened. Labour MPs who have got reservations about a second referendum began feeling more confident about expressing that to each other. And the aggressive nature of the second referendum campaign has put off colleagues, pushing people away”.

 

 

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1 hour ago, aRdja said:

On the weekend caught up with a friend who just got her Irish citizenship through he grandparent. She’s over the moon. She works as a freelance venture consultant, so she’s ‘protected’ from whatever Brexit scenario, we’ll end up with, 

I missed out by one generation. I was gutted. So near and yet so far.

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42 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

Auditioning for Brian Reade's job, Section?

It was, indeed, an excellent post.

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Interesting read on just how tweaking the wording changes the polling.

 

Spiked: So is there a public appetite for a second referendum?

Curtice: That depends entirely on how you ask the question! The People’s Vote campaign claim they have overwhelming support for another referendum, but, frankly, that evidence is lacking. The polling is very consistent – even the polls that came out today are exactly the same. If you ask a question along the lines of ‘Should there be a “people’s vote” to accept or reject the prime minister’s deal?’, lo and behold nearly all those polls show at least a plurality in favour. If, on the other hand, you ask people ‘Should we have another referendum?’ and you make it clear that Remain will be an option, most of those polls show a plurality against it.

The difference arises because of how Leave voters react to different wordings. A majority of them are always against a second vote, but populist language like ‘people’s vote’ plays well with them. The people running the People’s Vote have been experimenting with different ways of presenting a second referendum and their polling discovered that ‘people’s vote’ and ‘final say’ were popular. When you ask questions like, ‘Should the people have the final say on whether we accept the deal or not?’, some Leave voters say, ‘Well, we are meant to be in charge, aren’t we? So maybe that’s not such a bad idea after all.’ On the other hand, if you make it clear that it’s a rerun of 2016, then Leave voters run a mile. Remain voters are consistently in favour of a second vote, however. There is no consensus on this question overall, reflecting the polarised nature of the debate.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Section_31 said:

The problem is the Tories, that's the real alpha and omega of the problem.

 

The referendum was called to quash the infighting that's riddled it for decades. Both leave and remain were fronted by Tories and both factions resorted to dirty tricks, bluster and hyperbole to obfuscate any real debate. The leave campaign Tories especially didn't even care about leaving, they did it to knife Cameron in the back, then knifed each other in the back.

 

Once it was done, they then installed leading leavers in high positions who again instigated machinations aimed at furthering their own private agendas, destroying from word go any possibility of an orderly and good-natured exit from the EU.

 

How Corbyn, the bloke from Wetherspoons, or some retired ship builder from Tyneside ever managed to take even a portion of the blame for any of this shit is truly, utterly mindblowing and testimony to how our bought and paid for media skewers debates in the direction it's told.

 

The Tories were the beginning, middle and end of this debacle. As they are for most things bad about this country. They'll do anything, sell anything, burn anything, from Northern Ireland peace to social cohesion, to further their own goals.

 

This is what happens when your political philosophy is based entirely around 'you'. You're constantly working angles, constantly and instinctively scouting every situation for how it can benefit you and only you. If Tories were Roman soldiers they wouldn't be able to form Testudo. One would get a javelin through the head and the rest would run away to Anglessey and blame the druids.

 

Read your first sentence. I agree. Tories are the problem. They have always been the problem and until slain will always be the problem.

 

Now look at the state of the Tory party since the referendum result, need I say more? 

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13 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

Read your first sentence. I agree. Tories are the problem. They have always been the problem and until slain will always be the problem.

 

Now look at the state of the Tory party since the referendum result, need I say more? 

I just checked, they're still in power & looking ok in the polls with their main rivals in arguably a bigger state.

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6 hours ago, Anubis said:

 

Yes, but first we sent in David Davies armed with a sheet of A4 paper and, by all accounts, fortified by several large measures of alcohol. Then we sent in Rabb, who was shocked to discover that we are an island and don't share a land border with the EU. God knows what Barclay is doing....

Barclay can't be doing anything. He's only been in charge since plan A was signed and they don't want a plan B, so he's just sitting off eating onion soup from what I can tell. 

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9 minutes ago, Mook said:

I just checked, they're still in power & looking ok in the polls with their main rivals in arguably a bigger state.

Of course they are still in power but now  in a hung government.

 

Do a bit more research and check where they were before the referendum, before the Tory prime minister resigned before a dozen ministers got chopped and before the shambles of a party lost a vote by the biggest margin in modern history.

 

We've had a fucking big shake up, and the the Tory party has been wounded. Seems like some do not  like the smell of the coffee.

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If anything, this referendum and subsequent debacle has shown that both major parties are unfit to run the country and proportional representation is a matter of extreme urgency.

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13 minutes ago, Boss said:

If anything, this referendum and subsequent debacle has shown that both major parties are unfit to run the country and proportional representation is a matter of extreme urgency.

Why so with Labour?

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13 minutes ago, Boss said:

If anything, this referendum and subsequent debacle has shown that both major parties are unfit to run the country and proportional representation is a matter of extreme urgency.

I disagree, a dictatorship is the way forward.

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14 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Of course they are still in power but now  in a hung government.

 

Do a bit more research and check where they were before the referendum, before the Tory prime minister resigned before a dozen ministers got chopped and before the shambles of a party lost a vote by the biggest margin in modern history.

 

We've had a fucking big shake up, and the the Tory party has been wounded. Seems like some do not  like the smell of the coffee.

I've mentioned this before, but you either slept for a year or went out on one massive 12-month bender, because you seem utterly incapable of distinguishing between the Referendum of 2016 and the General Election of 2017.

 

Anyway, back in the real world, it's not just foreign humans who need to worry about losing their rights as a result of the 51.9% voting with the right wing of the Tory Party.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-act-repeal-brexit-echr-commons-parliament-conservatives-a8734886.html?fbclid=IwAR3v7DEyy72hAjNRGeRhcjMo66Fkca4uP58pJ2LtC5LuZF9Vvsj6DuUm4u8

 

“Our manifesto committed to not repealing or replacing the Human Rights Act while the process of EU exit is underway,” he [Edward Argar, a junior justice minister] wrote.

 

“It is right that we wait until the process of leaving the EU concludes before considering the matter further in the full knowledge of the new constitutional landscape."

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Labour MP on Politics today earlier (forget his name) saying that their is no desire for a new referendum within labour or the general public and it will probably be an even bigger leave margin. The fucking cunt. 

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The narrative that 'they're all the same' is demonstratably not true, it's just the lazy spiel constantly regurgitated and encouraged by elements of society and the media to get us all not to think we can change anything.

 

Under the last Tory government the NHS was on its arse, people were on the streets and the poor got shat on. The North neglected. Northern Ireland was a powder keg due to their hardline approach.

 

Under Labour we got the minimum wage, schools and hospitals built, record NHS funding, and I personally don't remember hardly any people sleeping rough. There was also the Good Friday agreement.

 

Another Tory government and rinse and repeat. NHS on its arse, prison system on its arse, policing on its arse, poverty everywhere. The North neglected. Northern Ireland no more than a bargaining chip and ripe for trouble again. All the while, private interests have their snouts in the trough.

 

They're not all the same. One tears things down, the other rebuilds, and on it goes.

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Who's in the mood for some facts?

 

Three years too late, somebody's done an excellent research job on the Sovereignty claim - "We can't even make our own laws. We need to take back control!"

 

According to the Commons library, from 1996 to 2014, 34,105 new laws were introduced.  Of these, 4,514 were influenced by EU law; 72 of which were against the will of the UK Government.

 

This bloke has identified those 72 - and it's hard to side with the UK Government on almost any of them.

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Boss said:

If anything, this referendum and subsequent debacle has shown that both major parties are unfit to run the country and proportional representation is a matter of extreme urgency.

 

Do you want that Lib Dem membership form by post or email?

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6 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Do you want that Lib Dem membership form by post or email?

Only if you pledge promise to work for actual Proportional Representation this time.

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8 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Do you want that Lib Dem membership form by post or email?

 

I'd prefer a cross party consensus, however doubtful.

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4 hours ago, aRdja said:

On the weekend caught up with a friend who just got her Irish citizenship through he grandparent. She’s over the moon. She works as a freelance venture consultant, so she’s ‘protected’ from whatever Brexit scenario, we’ll end up with, 

Freelance venture consultant, sounds a hell of a cunt, no doubt she is a perfectly good and decent human, but fuck me what a title.

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1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

The narrative that 'they're all the same' is demonstratably not true, it's just the lazy spiel constantly regurgitated and encouraged by elements of society and the media to get us all not to think we can change anything.

 

Under the last Tory government the NHS was on its arse, people were on the streets and the poor got shat on. The North neglected. Northern Ireland was a powder keg due to their hardline approach.

 

Under Labour we got the minimum wage, schools and hospitals built, record NHS funding, and I personally don't remember hardly any people sleeping rough. There was also the Good Friday agreement.

 

Another Tory government and rinse and repeat. NHS on its arse, prison system on its arse, policing on its arse, poverty everywhere. The North neglected. Northern Ireland no more than a bargaining chip and ripe for trouble again. All the while, private interests have their snouts in the trough.

 

They're not all the same. One tears things down, the other rebuilds, and on it goes.

Exactly. It’s an infuriatingly bullshit argument 

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2 hours ago, Section_31 said:

Why so with Labour?

 

Corbyn's initial plan to stay out of the Brexit situation was a smart decision. Allow the Tories to fall on their own sword and galvanise the groundswell of support when they do so. Instead he's gone back on that. He's now backing a second referendum - which firstly makes a mockery of democracy, and secondly alienates all the labour leave voters - of which there are many.

 

There's zero guarantees that the Tory turncoats needed to win such a vote will turn on their own party when it comes to the crunch. It's a perfect set up for them to back the government at the 11th hour, thwarting the second referendum vote and leaving their enemy - Corbyn - stranded up shit creek without a paddle. He will have shown to the electorate that he's a fool for being so easily manipulated, and lose all the leave voters in the process.

 

Then factor in the pointlessness of the no confidence vote. Allowing the government to claim victory immediately after their worst ever defeat and changing the narrative from disaster to strength in the space of 24 hours. It reeks of desperation. 

 

Then look at Labours position in the polls - which is diabolical considering the Tories have cocked up every negotiation with the EU over the space of two years - and are still polling higher. Labour are totally unfit to run the country - in their current guise.

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1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

The narrative that 'they're all the same' is demonstratably not true, it's just the lazy spiel constantly regurgitated and encouraged by elements of society and the media to get us all not to think we can change anything.

 

Under the last Tory government the NHS was on its arse, people were on the streets and the poor got shat on. The North neglected. Northern Ireland was a powder keg due to their hardline approach.

 

Under Labour we got the minimum wage, schools and hospitals built, record NHS funding, and I personally don't remember hardly any people sleeping rough. There was also the Good Friday agreement.

 

Another Tory government and rinse and repeat. NHS on its arse, prison system on its arse, policing on its arse, poverty everywhere. The North neglected. Northern Ireland no more than a bargaining chip and ripe for trouble again. All the while, private interests have their snouts in the trough.

 

They're not all the same. One tears things down, the other rebuilds, and on it goes.

 

Homelessness hit a high in 2003: https://fullfact.org/economy/homelessness-england

 

Schools and hospitals built with PFI that we're still paying through the nose for today.

 

The Northern Ireland peace process was started by John Major.

 

You have a somewhat selective memory, Section. 

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10 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

Corbyn's initial plan to stay out of the Brexit situation was a smart decision. Allow the Tories to fall on their own sword and galvanise the groundswell of support when they do so. Instead he's gone back on that. He's now backing a second referendum - which firstly makes a mockery of democracy, and secondly alienates all the labour leave voters - of which there are many.

 

There's zero guarantees that the Tory turncoats needed to win such a vote will turn on their own party when it comes to the crunch. It's a perfect set up for them to back the government at the 11th hour, thwarting the second referendum vote and leaving their enemy - Corbyn - stranded up shit creek without a paddle. He will have shown to the electorate that he's a fool for being so easily manipulated, and lose all the leave voters in the process.

 

Then factor in the pointlessness of the no confidence vote. Allowing the government to claim victory immediately after their worst ever defeat and changing the narrative from disaster to strength in the space of 24 hours. It reeks of desperation. 

 

Then look at Labours position in the polls - which is diabolical considering the Tories have cocked up every negotiation with the EU over the space of two years - and are still polling higher. Labour are totally unfit to run the country - in their current guise.

Labour's amendment doesn't call for a second referendum.  It calls for No-Deal to be taken off the table and for Parliament to be given time to debate alternatives to May's failed deal.  (The option for a second referendum is just one of those alternatives, which the Amendment calls for Parliament to be able to decide on.)

 

It's really not Corbyn or his allies who have ever put faith in mythical "Tory rebels".  But the point of the Amendment is to demonstrate (to the world outside Westminster) that Labour are prepared to do whatever it takes to break the deadlock, while the Government are spinning around in ever-decreasing circles.

 

I've not seen anybody use words like "victory" or "strength" because May scraped through the No Confidence vote by 19 votes.

 

In the latest round of polls from the UK's 10 polling organisations, Labour lead in 9 of them (trailing only in YouGov - the one with strong ties to the Tory Party).  Don't believe everything Fiona Bruce says and don't believe anything Isobel Oakeshott says.

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