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Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
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317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


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19 minutes ago, M_B said:

It means that if we leave without a deal then WTO tariffs will apply. Moog had wrongly assumed that we would be able to maintain zero tariffs under article 24 of GATT while we negotiated a trade agreement with the EU.

 

(I think)

We could leave and trade under WTO and leave an open border between the republic and NI. As I understand it under WTO we have to treat all our trading partners the same as a default position unless superseded by a trade agreement. Given that the open border would in effect be between the UK and EU it would be a matter of minutes after we left before several other WTO members would complain as they'd be significantly disadvantaged by this arrangement.

 

The result would be a hard border. The Brexiteer's are being astonishingly disingenuous claiming that no deal would not lead to a hard border. In fact any of the outcomes beyond remaining in the single market would require a backstop to avoid this. The fall back is for the Brexiteer's to claim a technological solution can be used to overcome this despite the fact that there isn't an IT based solution in existence at the moment, it's theoretical.

 

That's my understanding anyway.  

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1 hour ago, M_B said:

It means that if we leave without a deal then WTO tariffs will apply. Moog had wrongly assumed that we would be able to maintain zero tariffs under article 24 of GATT while we negotiated a trade agreement with the EU.

 

(I think)

OK. That's obviously not going to be right is it. He wants zero tarrifs on everything coming in anyway he said on newsnight last week. 

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56 minutes ago, clangers said:

We could leave and trade under WTO and leave an open border between the republic and NI. As I understand it under WTO we have to treat all our trading partners the same as a default position unless superseded by a trade agreement. Given that the open border would in effect be between the UK and EU it would be a matter of minutes after we left before several other WTO members would complain as they'd be significantly disadvantaged by this arrangement.

 

The result would be a hard border. The Brexiteer's are being astonishingly disingenuous claiming that no deal would not lead to a hard border. In fact any of the outcomes beyond remaining in the single market would require a backstop to avoid this. The fall back is for the Brexiteer's to claim a technological solution can be used to overcome this despite the fact that there isn't an IT based solution in existence at the moment, it's theoretical.

  

That's my understanding anyway.  

and surely the answer to all this would have been just to put a trade agreement in place with the EU. I don't quite understand how that hasn't become everyone's position. I realise it is too late now, but we have been looking at this for 2 years. 

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Well the trade agreement would have come after the withdrawal agreement, but that fell on its arse because of the backstop. Now she's trying to change the backstop, but the EU says it won't. We find ourselves living in Interesting Times....

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36 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

Netherlands aren't doing too bad at picking up leaving UK trade like. Might not be so bad after all. 

 

All the increased income in the Netherlands might mean you can pay for your TLW subscription......

 

Sorry. Sorry. I'm being naughty. Couldn't resist.

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17 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

and surely the answer to all this would have been just to put a trade agreement in place with the EU. I don't quite understand how that hasn't become everyone's position. I realise it is too late now, but we have been looking at this for 2 years. 

 

Yes, but first we sent in David Davies armed with a sheet of A4 paper and, by all accounts, fortified by several large measures of alcohol. Then we sent in Rabb, who was shocked to discover that we are an island and don't share a land border with the EU. God knows what Barclay is doing....

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9 minutes ago, Anubis said:

 

All the increased income in the Netherlands might mean you can pay for your TLW subscription......

 

Sorry. Sorry. I'm being naughty. Couldn't resist.

 

You should now expect a cease and desist letter from Rico's solicitor.

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NEW: Labour MPs from leave constituencies going to see their chief whip this afternoon furious about People’s Vote amendment. One tells me “We’re pissed off, just because we’re silent people forget we’re in the majority. It’s like our working class communities are being ignored.
 
It’s no secret that the likes of and others are unhappy with the Remain wing of the party pushing for a PV. Quite a broad coalition of MPs from leave seats who wouldn’t necessarily agree on other issues
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36 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

How do you fix this shit when both main parties are terrified of harming their party more than the country.

 

Labour are waiting for the Tory party to eat themselves whilst they are eating themselves.

The alpha and omega of the problem is the FPTP electoral system. In even the weakest proportional system, Cameron would have felt no need to offer a referendum because Brexiteers could have flounced off to Ukip then transferred back to the Tories on a second count. With FPTP, he was terrified that Ukip would take enough votes away to let in Labour and that Marxist (ha!) Miliband. The same calculation now paralyses both parties. What a mess.

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The party v country debate isn't that clear cut though. Labour know that Brexit is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to stop. 

 

They could come out heavily in favour of remain/second referendum etc, but may be exposing themselves to a double whammy of losing seats and any chance of government all for supporting a potential dead duck. 

 

It's easy to sit on one side of the fence and trivialise the fallout of going against the referendum result if you back a small party who have next to no seats to lose anyway. 

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29 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

The party v country debate isn't that clear cut though. Labour know that Brexit is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to stop. 

 

They could come out heavily in favour of remain/second referendum etc, but may be exposing themselves to a double whammy of losing seats and any chance of government all for supporting a potential dead duck. 

 

It's easy to sit on one side of the fence and trivialise the fallout of going against the referendum result if you back a small party who have next to no seats to lose anyway. 

The framing of 'party v country' is the wrong way of looking at it because it makes out that someone who puts party first is putting the country last. A better way of looking at it is that people believe that party unity is the best thing for the country, that a split in the party would be disastrous for the country, a position which, given the current paradigm, can be eminently reasonable. The problem is that people are hurtling along a course of action they think is bad for fear of splitting the party. When Anna Soubry consistently files into the same division lobby as Jacob Rees-Mogg, shit is seriously fucked.

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28 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

The party v country debate isn't that clear cut though. Labour know that Brexit is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to stop. 

 

They could come out heavily in favour of remain/second referendum etc, but may be exposing themselves to a double whammy of losing seats and any chance of government all for supporting a potential dead duck. 

 

It's easy to sit on one side of the fence and trivialise the fallout of going against the referendum result if you back a small party who have next to no seats to lose anyway. 

 

There's the temper neg.  Chortle. 

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2 hours ago, Anubis said:

 

Yes, but first we sent in David Davies armed with a sheet of A4 paper and, by all accounts, fortified by several large measures of alcohol. Then we sent in Rabb, who was shocked to discover that we are an island and don't share a land border with the EU. God knows what Barclay is doing....

David Davies...Mr Repeat...I don't know how many times he mentioned that Europe would give in at the last minute...without mentioning that Cameron got dumped on his arse in Europe just a few years back!

 

This whole mess is Torymade and the opposition miss open goal after open goal every day of the week coupled with the DUP wagging that tail! 

 

Incidentally the 'Right Honourable' Ian Paisley is back in the news again following his crocodile tear act...

 

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mp-paisley-claims-he-put-himself-out-to-fly-first-class-to-new-york-charity-event-at-last-minute-37736271.html

 

He's a First class kind of guy!!

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On the weekend caught up with a friend who just got her Irish citizenship through he grandparent. She’s over the moon. She works as a freelance venture consultant, so she’s ‘protected’ from whatever Brexit scenario, we’ll end up with, 

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There are a wide range of Labour MPs who either have grave reservations about another referendum or are flat-out opposed to another referendum. From Yvette Cooper, Lucy Powell Lisa Nandy and Ruth Smeeth Jon Cruddas , Ian Austin etc. 

 

Quite a few of them have sizeable majority's some have small majoritys. Smeeth said 75% of her letters were demands for a No Deal. Here are some of her words. 

 

Writing for Times Red Box, she points out that political leaders “have failed to engage or even try to understand why cities and towns like the one I’m so proud to represent voted in such overwhelming numbers to Leave”.

“Instead they’ve insulted, belittled and ignored my community, my friends and my family. They’ve told them that they are thick; that they are racist; that they were conned. Nothing could be further from the truth.”

 

Another MP posted this a few days ago.

 

 

 

 

Dxdy-WPd-XQAEgl1-X.jpg

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/OnnMel/status/1087464305665155073

 

Sarah Champion has a 30% majority.

 

https://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/view,mp-sarah-champion-will-not-back-brexit-deal_30313.htm

 

Lisa Nandy who has over a 30% majority is in favour of a citizens assembly something Brown has been pushing. Some of her words.

 

What’s more, support for no deal outside of parliament is growing. Months ago, the number of people calling to cut all ties with the EU was vanishingly small. Now, in my constituency, it is the argument I hear most often. The fact that thousands of jobs in food production, pensions and savings are at risk means little to people who have been out of work for years and have no retirement savings at all, or have watched wages fall and pensions disappear for decades. For all the rage directed at MPs, it is those jobs that keep me awake at night.

 

But parliament is divided because the public is divided. In every part of this country, including my own, MPs are tugged apart by two poles who wish to leave with no deal or to remain.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/29/theresa-may-extend-article-50-no-deal-brexit

 

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The problem is the Tories, that's the real alpha and omega of the problem.

 

The referendum was called to quash the infighting that's riddled it for decades. Both leave and remain were fronted by Tories and both factions resorted to dirty tricks, bluster and hyperbole to obfuscate any real debate. The leave campaign Tories especially didn't even care about leaving, they did it to knife Cameron in the back, then knifed each other in the back.

 

Once it was done, they then installed leading leavers in high positions who again instigated machinations aimed at furthering their own private agendas, destroying from word go any possibility of an orderly and good-natured exit from the EU.

 

How Corbyn, the bloke from Wetherspoons, or some retired ship builder from Tyneside ever managed to take even a portion of the blame for any of this shit is truly, utterly mindblowing and testimony to how our bought and paid for media skewers debates in the direction it's told.

 

The Tories were the beginning, middle and end of this debacle. As they are for most things bad about this country. They'll do anything, sell anything, burn anything, from Northern Ireland peace to social cohesion, to further their own goals.

 

This is what happens when your political philosophy is based entirely around 'you'. You're constantly working angles, constantly and instinctively scouting every situation for how it can benefit you and only you. If Tories were Roman soldiers they wouldn't be able to form Testudo. One would get a javelin through the head and the rest would run away to Anglessey and blame the druids.

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