Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[VladimirIlyich]

 

 

I'm surprised they they haven't mentioned the plague of locusts, raining fire and Britain crumbling apart and falling into the sea yet.

 

No-one really knows for sure what would would happen if we leave but without doubt it's in the DNA of this country is to punch above its weight and do alright for itself, I can't see that changing just because we leave one of the most corrupt organisations on Earth to look after our own affairs.

If you trust the Tories to look after the same people that its been denying basic health,housing,education etc(eg everybody but the supremely wealthy) which may also include yourself? then you are deluded. As for the biggest gang of crooks around,you only have to look at the UK Government and its masters in the City of London to find the kind of crooks that cannot be matched. As for workers rights(whats left of them) forget it.

Punching above our weight hasnt happened for a long time and involves both unity as a Country(this country has never been more divided) and quite a bit of outside help,eg WW2, which all the 'empirists' keep harking back too but was an absolute nightmare for ordinary people.

[Bobby Hundreds]

None so blind as them that read the Daily Fail.

There's the problem the daily mail site is hugely popular mostly due to its shitty celeb and old internet stories. It's layout is very clean and simple compared to other news layouts though. People go for there celebrate news and then read the barrage of hate filled shite. Personally I think papers are far too full of opinion pieces. any debate on the eu should be built on a foundation of facts, both sides of the arguement.

[Vincent Vega]

If we vote to leave (which I believe is unlikely) Cameron will go back to the negotiating table, get a few concessions, probably on immigration, and then there will be another vote. This will continue until the political establishment and big business get the vote that they want, see Ireland and their vote against the Lisbon treaty.

[jimmycase]

If we vote to leave (which I believe is unlikely) Cameron will go back to the negotiating table, get a few concessions, probably on immigration, and then there will be another vote. This will continue until the political establishment and big business get the vote that they want, see Ireland and their vote against the Lisbon treaty.

 

I actually think it will be a close vote. Hopefully, the majority will vote to leave. I fail to see how anyone can want to be part of a 'club' when members get the chance to decide which part of the club's rules they will stick to, those they'll ignore and those they'll tell everyone else they'll stick to but wont behind people's back.

 

Seriously, when an organisation's stated aims is to have the same rules, laws, regulations or whatever on all its citizen but, each of those member states agrees to this disagrees to that, vetoe's parts it doesnt like, how can any sane individual vote to be part of that?

 

If the country wants to be in the EU, fine. But stop cherry picking the bits of the EU you want the country signed up to and ignoring those bit you dont want or like.

 

A good, sensible Labour Government can deliver the advantages of worker's rights and protections without the dictat from Strasbourg and Brussels. Its ridiculous to say we should stay in because the Tories would do this that and the other and look to just the EU for some form of salvation.

 

For that reason, Im out.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I think if the Tories replace Cameron with Borris you could end up with at least another term of Tory rule despite how shite they'll be. Your modern day voter treats politics like they do shitty talent(less) shows. It is not about what you offer but more of how much they like you. If the UK leave the EU I reckon you can kiss goodbye to UK as it exists today, I can't see Scotland or Wales wanting to be part of it, you'll be left with England and a little annex called Northern Ireland. Guess which parts of society will bare the brunt of the Tory cuts as England (because NI won't even get a mention in any new name which evolves after the break up of the UK) suffer. 

 

Another few points to factor in should the UK vote to leave the EU. A lot of ex pats might be forced to return, nearly 2 million alone living in Europe as it stands, where the fuck are they gonna live and find work? Plus the Military from Germany are all going to return over the next few years, more housing needed. 

 

What I originally posted and you seem incapable of understanding. 

We come out the EU and Britain will cease to excist! Leaving the Tories to rape and Pillage whats left in England, meanwhile a whole 2million British living in Europe (Love to know where this figure comes from) will get kicked out of the countries they're in leaving them homeless. As well as returning ex squaddies.

 

You really could not make shit like that up....do you work for the EU propaganda wing??

 

You then question where the 2 million figure of Brits living abroad in Europe comes from and claim I said Ex squaddies. 

 

I already posted you links to back up the amount of Brits living in European countries and what will probably happen should the UK leave the EU, not my fault you don't choose to read it. I didn't say ex squaddies did I? I'm on about the forces who are pulling out of Germany fully over the next few years. 

 

Like you say, you couldn't make this shit up. You really should learn to read what is posted before you have a pop. 

 

So I pointed out again that I had provided links to back up the figures and explained that it wasn't ex forces which I was on about but the forces which are leaving over the next 2 years as the UK pull all of its troops out of Germany.

 

Forces pulling out of Germany has fuck all to do with the EU! Its baffling how you've managed to link the two.

 

So now to your latest shifting of goalposts.

 

If you read my original post again I said it has to be factored in as these soldiers are going to need accommodation, something which their seems to be a total lack of in the UK as it is. So if the UK vote to leave the UK then with all the returning expats who can no longer live abroad it all adds up to an awful lot of people looking for homes and work.

[zigackly]

 

I actually think it will be a close vote. Hopefully, the majority will vote to leave. I fail to see how anyone can want to be part of a 'club' when members get the chance to decide which part of the club's rules they will stick to, those they'll ignore and those they'll tell everyone else they'll stick to but wont behind people's back.

 

Seriously, when an organisation's stated aims is to have the same rules, laws, regulations or whatever on all its citizen but, each of those member states agrees to this disagrees to that, vetoe's parts it doesnt like, how can any sane individual vote to be part of that?

 

If the country wants to be in the EU, fine. But stop cherry picking the bits of the EU you want the country signed up to and ignoring those bit you dont want or like.

 

A good, sensible Labour Government can deliver the advantages of worker's rights and protections without the dictat from Strasbourg and Brussels. Its ridiculous to say we should stay in because the Tories would do this that and the other and look to just the EU for some form of salvation.

 

For that reason, Im out.

 

In all honesty, I don't believe we will see a Labour government until post-Corbyn. His election as party leader was a protest vote against centrist policy, which is fucking fantastic, but now the party needs to realise it does not have a centrist mandate, move to the left, and then appoint a leader who might be electable as Prime Minister. Much as I respect him as a politician, I don't think that's Corbyn. Hopefully this will all happen before the next general election, but it's damage control until then, and giving the Tories even a couple of years of free rein will be pretty fucking damaging. I don't think Europe gives us very much of a safety blanket at all, but even a thin one is better than none.

[njackets]

 

I actually think it will be a close vote. Hopefully, the majority will vote to leave. I fail to see how anyone can want to be part of a 'club' when members get the chance to decide which part of the club's rules they will stick to, those they'll ignore and those they'll tell everyone else they'll stick to but wont behind people's back.

 

Seriously, when an organisation's stated aims is to have the same rules, laws, regulations or whatever on all its citizen but, each of those member states agrees to this disagrees to that, vetoe's parts it doesnt like, how can any sane individual vote to be part of that?

 

If the country wants to be in the EU, fine. But stop cherry picking the bits of the EU you want the country signed up to and ignoring those bit you dont want or like.

 

A good, sensible Labour Government can deliver the advantages of worker's rights and protections without the dictat from Strasbourg and Brussels. Its ridiculous to say we should stay in because the Tories would do this that and the other and look to just the EU for some form of salvation.

 

For that reason, Im out.

Against the Tories, against the fat cat bankers, against capitalism etc yet the Tories are banging the drum to stay in, the stay in campaigns biggest donor's so far have been Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan it defies logic.

 

I think staying in or out has been turned into a Right v Left thing by the media and people are scared to against it.

[Rico1304]

Hasn't the forces draw down from Germany and Europe been happening for years? I went to Düsseldorf to see a mate who works for the MOD and he was working on it then. The base he was on had huge areas that were empty. That was 6 years ago.

[magicrat]

If we vote to leave (which I believe is unlikely) Cameron will go back to the negotiating table, get a few concessions, probably on immigration, and then there will be another vote. This will continue until the political establishment and big business get the vote that they want, see Ireland and their vote against the Lisbon treaty.

 

No there won't . It will be binding,

 

Personally I don't see enough advantages to leave and a hell of lot of hassle getting out, Given the EU are our biggest trading partners in practice we will still have to live with all the trade regulations and free movement of people , A leave vote would set the Scots off on another round of devolution demands which this time probably would see the UK split. Yes maybe in the end we will end up with more control of our own borders, more social justice and eventually increased prosperity but its a big if and I could do without all the uncertainty and disruption ,

It just feels wrong in an ever more dangerous world to be going it alone and if for no other reason than i refuse to be on the same side as that obnoxious cunt Farage i'll be voting to stay   

[njackets]

Hasn't the forces draw down from Germany and Europe been happening for years? I went to Düsseldorf to see a mate who works for the MOD and he was working on it then. The base he was on had huge areas that were empty. That was 6 years ago.

Pulling out of Germany has been on the cards for years no doubt whatsoever its been planned for for years in advance!

 

Its as if all these squaddies are going to hit the UK with no where to live, nothing to see here but more scare mongering (On a side note the barracks I used to be on in Paderborn is going to be used to house refugees) I can't tell what the locals will be happier with living next to a camp full of Brit squaddies or Refugees.

 

Sad they're pulling out, best years of my life out there no better place to be for young single squaddie than Germany!

[Mr Nando]

Hello no.

 

We put in more money then we get back.

 

We don't have total control over our trade treaties.

 

I don't believe Germany & France would cease free trade with us even if we did exit the EU and don't agree to the 'free movement of goods, persons, services and capital' like Norway & Switzerland simply because we have a trade deficit with the EU of £8.1 billion. It would be like going into Libya, killing Gaddaffi and then moaning three years later that ISIS might take control. Oh shit they could be that stupid.

 

We don't have control over our borders. The current situation with Eastern European workers is akin to the United States allowing free movement and legal working rights to everyone living in Mexico. And low skilled migration IS a problem. Look it up. It depresses wages at the lower end of the scale by anywhere up to and including 15%.
Also wanting control over our borders does not make me a racist. I realise we need migration. I'd just prefer to be in control of it oh and encourage it from areas that we have a common history/culture/langue, say the commonwealth (it works in the Armed Forces).

 

We don't have control over our own legislation. 

 

Also deep down inside im pretty sure the Germans and French would like us leaving. Would give them so much more power.

 

Having a quick skim of the conversation. The main reason to stay in seems to be that people view the EU as some kind of bulwark against the Tories fucking over the poor? Well I've got news for you guys and girls. In a democratic, capitalistic, global economy the poor will get fucked over whether the Tories or Labour are in power and whether we are in the EU or not. 

The poor got fucked over under New Labour.

Smart poor kids got fucked over by the destruction of the grammar school system.

More vocationally minded poor kids got fucked over by the destruction of the grammar school system.

You can tell that the grammar school system was good for social mobility, because the Tories didn't reverse the changes. Why would they, when the average private schools are now at a higher level or attainment then the average comprehensive. Whereas during the grammar school era, all the dumb rich kids couldn't get into the Grammar Schools and the good private schools were over subscribed. Now the rich dumb kids get to go to decent private schools, with smaller class sizes and on average, better teachers.

Labour could of nationalised the steel industry.

Labour could of reinvigorated the shipyards, that the Tories said couldn't be run in a Western Country, yet the Japanese and Germans took up most of the slack!

 

 

We have an electoral system that has placed David Cameron in charge of our country, with a majority, with just  26% of the electorate (not total population)voting for him.

 

Don't ever kid yourselves, things will never change in this 'democracy'. Especially with the rampant consumerism. People just don't care. As long as they can know what Kim Khardisan had for dinner.

 

The country is fucked and short of a world wide natural disaster/epidemic/truly global war (not some war that has under 300 dead soldiers over nearly a decade, I'm talking Somme levels of casualties), I truly can't see where the change can come from.

 

I digress. So if you want change to occur, and you truly believe that leaving the EU will make the poor worse off. You should vote to leave! Because maybe if thinks get bad enough, maybe people might actually give a shit for a change. 

 

Look at America for fucks sake. Who would of thought that a self confessed socialist could be the favourite to win the Democratic nomination. He might as well of called himself Stalin/Lenin/Mao, the way they equate socialism to communism. But shit has got so bad over there, that he actually has a chance! Now I'm not saying he will change much. But just the fact people are willing to vote for a 'socialist' is truly monumental.

 

end rant

 

edit: Will staying in the EU destroy the two tier tax and judicial system we have in this country?
Tax avoidance is for the rich as they can afford the lawyers and accountants.
Tax evasion is for the poor because they can't.
Prison is for poor people who cant afford a decent lawyer.
Prison isn't for rich people (unless you class open prisons as prison cough Archer cough) because they can afford decent lawyers.

 

[VladimirIlyich]

Farage has hijacked this thread!

[Rico1304]

The argument that we put in more than we get out is weird. How can every country expect to get more out than they put in?

[VladimirIlyich]

The argument that we put in more than we get out is weird. How can every country expect to get more out than they put in?

The getting more out than you put in is through trade agreements,treaties and a lack of,errm wars maybe? The naysayers only look at pounds/euros and pence/cents when its supposed to be about more than this.

Every governments wastes money,ours particularly,so with the EU 'wasted money' we obviously get a fair bit back.

[mattyq]

The argument that we put in more than we get out is weird. How can every country expect to get more out than they put in?

I think it's got something to do with a weird narrative about plucky little England being taken for a ride by the devious continentals

Laughably dim witted

You'd never think we're the 2nd biggest economy in Europe that get our way far more than not and the money going to the poorer countries is making them richer which, in turn, makes them a far larger market for our goods and services

[stringvest]

I think it's got something to do with a weird narrative about plucky little England being taken for a ride by the devious continentals

Laughably dim witted

You'd never think we're the 2nd biggest economy in Europe that get our way far more than not and the money going to the poorer countries is making them richer which, in turn, makes them a far larger market for our goods and services

 

sadly, that's not a policy that this government is prepared to subscribe to in this country though.  'Actually investing in something that will benefit the population rather than short term benefits to our friends and family who happen to have shares in the business we give the national assets to?  Sorry, you lot can go fucking starve for all we care'.  

[Mr Nando]

Farage has hijacked this thread!

So do you think the comprehensive school system works then?

Why is it that we have some of the lowest literacy and numeracy skills in Europe?

How is a comprehensive school system fair, at all, in anyway? The rich can either send their kids off to a nice private school (with tiny class sizes), or play the postcode lottery game and move house into the catchment area of a good comprehensive school (if they don't go private). Poor people can do neither of these things. So how does the system help poor people again? By providing schools that have a lower level of attainment then the old grammar schools....

 

My old school used to be one of the best secondary schools in the small city close by. My year was the last intake where they took anyone outside of the city (I was damn lucky, could of ended up at the one secondary school in my town, which was used by the county to place all the expelled students in, a friend of mine, who lived at opposite ends of the town had no choice but to go there, he was clever, quiet and introverted lad, who I found out got expelled three years later...) who did not have a sibling. A few years later they stopped that as well. They now are one of the worst schools in the city. And the school in my town? Why that is as shit as it has always been.

 

Why is it that the nearly 1/3 of MP's went to private school? Could be that comprehensive schools suck? Or that 60% of the cabinet went to Oxbridge?

 

Our education system is on a downward spiral, thanks to the comprehensive school system (falling levels of attainment would logically lead to, on average worse teachers for the next generation and so on and on...) and also the ridiculous insistence that so many people should go to University. Which has lead to more barriers for the poor, on so many levels.

 

Lets see the problems with such a large percentage of people going to uni.

Lots of people = people have to pay, less people = uni still free.

Devaluing of degrees. Just a basic principle the more common something is, the less worth it holds. Not mention the fact that larger class sizes and degrees that have laughable amounts of contact time (8 hours a week in some cases) lead to degrees that are worth less. It also decreases the opportunities for work for people who haven't gone to University.

 

In an economy where the majority of jobs created are low skilled, non salaried, minimum wage jobs why are we pushing more people into higher eduction? It makes no sense, what so ever. As it stands only 60% of graduates get jobs relating to their degree or if they are one of the lucky ones an actual graduate job. So 40 % of people are left with a degree which they can't use to get a job and are saddled with a ridiculous amount of debt. Woop woop!

More and more students puts even more pressure on the local housing markets, pricing people out of buying or having all the cheap rents being used as student accommodation.

 

And the reason paying more then you get out is bad, is due to the shit heap that are our current finances. We can't even look after our own elderly and homeless properly. Why the fuck should we part of something, that is a net loss to us.

 

 

The getting more out than you put in is through trade agreements,treaties and a lack of,errm wars maybe? The naysayers only look at pounds/euros and pence/cents when its supposed to be about more than this.

 

So you think the UK leaving the EU is going to suddenly destabilise the continent? Any reason for this?

On the point of trade. The importance of EU trade for the UK has been on the decline since the late 90s anyway. Also can you really see the EU cutting of its nose to spite its face.

Oh it's about more than money is it? Then why don't we concentrate on our own poor, our own needy, instead of frittering away our help on people you and I shall never fucking meet. What makes helping people in a different country more important then improving the lives of your own citizens?

 

Also if all of you hate the Tories so much, then why the fuck are you agreeing with David fucking Cameron, to stay in the EU? I thought he was the anti christ.

[Mr Nando]

I think it's got something to do with a weird narrative about plucky little England being taken for a ride by the devious continentals

Laughably dim witted

You'd never think we're the 2nd biggest economy in Europe that get our way far more than not and the money going to the poorer countries is making them richer which, in turn, makes them a far larger market for our goods and services

Why don't we start up an economic trade union with some poor African countries then? Yeah lets start a union with The Central African Republic, Chad, Nigeria and The Democratic Republic of Congo. All those countries would benefit far more, have a larger population to buy our goods (pfffft we don't have an industrial base worth talking about) and services and also have vast natural resources for us to exploit, sorry I mean to help them develop.

It's got nothing about little England. It's about trying to do what is best for your own country.

[Rico1304]

Some of the absolute certainty in this thread frightens me, surely no one actually knows what'll happen. We may be slightly better off, we may be slightly worse off, personally I don't see an awful lot changing if we come out but feel we'll have a long period of uncertainty whilst we find out. That's no good for anyone. Plus, if we come out and it's a disaster we won't get back in on the terms we've got now.

[mattyq]

sadly, that's not a policy that this government is prepared to subscribe to in this country though.  'Actually investing in something that will benefit the population rather than short term benefits to our friends and family who happen to have shares in the business we give the national assets to?  Sorry, you lot can go fucking starve for all we care'.  

That's the point of the Eu, Stringy

We pay money into it and get less back in direct benefits...far more in indirect

But it's the EU that invests in Poland and Bulgaria etc just like they sank a lot of money into Liverpool and Ireland in the 80s

Obviously the Tories wouldn't be doing this on their own volition

 

 

Why don't we start up an economic trade union with some poor African countries then? Yeah lets start a union with The Central African Republic, Chad, Nigeria and The Democratic Republic of Congo. All those countries would benefit far more, have a larger population to buy our goods (pfffft we don't have an industrial base worth talking about) and services and also have vast natural resources for us to exploit, sorry I mean to help them develop.

It's got nothing about little England. It's about trying to do what is best for your own country.

China already doing that and it;s far cheaper and more efficient for our EU money to be spent in the same continent that we're on for pretty obvious fucking reasons

Our industrial base, despite being variously ignored and hammered by successive governments is still the 5th or 6th largest in the world

If you're interested in doing what's best for the UK then you wouldn't be looking to leave the EU

[stringvest]

That's the point of the Eu, Stringy

We pay money into it and get less back in direct benefits...far more in indirect

But it's the EU that invests in Poland and Bulgaria etc just like they sank a lot of money into Liverpool and Ireland in the 80s

Obviously the Tories wouldn't be doing this on their own volition

 

 

I know mate - I'm just pointing out (not that it needs pointing out) the hypocrisy between Cameron's stance on Europe and the UK.

[jimmycase]

Some of the absolute certainty in this thread frightens me, surely no one actually knows what'll happen. We may be slightly better off, we may be slightly worse off, personally I don't see an awful lot changing if we come out but feel we'll have a long period of uncertainty whilst we find out. That's no good for anyone. Plus, if we come out and it's a disaster we won't get back in on the terms we've got now.

 

Conversely, if we come out and its nothing like all what the doom and gloommongers suggest, just why the fuck would we want to go back in!?

[Rico1304]

Conversely, if we come out and its nothing like all what the doom and gloommongers suggest, just why the fuck would we want to go back in!?

I don't understand your point, obviously we wouldn't want to go back in if its ace - but what evidence/argument tells you it will be ace?

 

What is your definition of success here? We get to manage our own borders - ok, but the agreement with the French gives us that at the moment, we'll save the money we pay to Europe, but won't we pay a similar amount in tariffs? Most people on here spend fucking hours telling me out Parliament is wank and the system is rigged so why would you want them to be total charge?

 

Give me facts and decent arguments and I could change my mind, but staying in seems the less shit option.

[Mr Nando]

 

 

 

China already doing that and it;s far cheaper and more efficient for our EU money to be spent in the same continent that we're on for pretty obvious fucking reasons

Our industrial base, despite being variously ignored and hammered by successive governments is still the 5th or 6th largest in the world

If you're interested in doing what's best for the UK then you wouldn't be looking to leave the EU

 

Yeah they've been active for over a decade in Africa, clever of them to tie up the only other major source of rare earth minerals outside of China.

 

I find it hard to believe that it is cheaper to send money to the EU then it is to some poor African country. I didn't know paypal charged commission per mile. I understand that the corrupt bureaucracy is set up in Brussels, but I've heard the Africans are pretty good at corruption. 

 

5-6th largest? I find that hard to believe when we are the 10th largest exporter and 68% of that is manufactured goods (33rd in the world for percentage of exports as manufactured goods).

 

Even if the industrial base is the 5-6th largest in the world are you happy with the state it is in?

 

I think it is in a shit state. Dominated by multi-national corporations, who on the evidence of the last couple of years, probably pay close to nothing in tax.

Or the fact that 25% of jobs used to be in manufacturing but now only 8%.

Or the share of total economic output down from 30% to 9.7%.

Or the fact that we have virtually zero heavy industry (thanks to the Tories). Yet Germany/Japan/USA all still to somehow have major heavy industry.

 

Isn't it amazing how manufacturing has been able to streamline its work force but office work/clerical/bureaucracy work seems to be ever expanding (need to create jobs for all those people with pointless degrees) and yet when you to chat to a lot of people who work in the city/office jobs, they do very little aside from browsing the web and social media or playing candy crush.

[Stickman]

When I'm in I never pull out....

 

Oops thought it was The world of a woman thread.