Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Section_31]

2 hours ago, Lee909 said:

No

 

Untermensch (German pronunciation: [ˈʔʊntɐˌmɛnʃ], underman, sub-man, subhuman; plural: Untermenschen) is a term that became infamous when the Nazis used it to describe non-Aryan "inferior people" often referred to as "the masses from the East", that is Jews, Roma, and Slavs – mainly ethnic Poles, Serbs, and later also Russians.

Could mean pretty much anyone he didn't like really, he also described the Belgians as 'filthy people, a nation of idiots and a race of gypsies.' Hard to disagree to be fair.

[magicrat]

3 hours ago, Anny Road said:

The fact that this country is full of scrotes should come as no surprise to anyone.

Catholic or Protestant, West Ham or Millwall all they will always find a reason to justify violence and thuggery.

 

Of course its no surprise , its the lack of reaction now to the rise of racism and intolerance.

For me there is a link with the likes of Farage, Bannon and Banks with the cunts on the right of the Tory party looking the other way, Whatever the pros and cons of the EU I could never align myself with that scum 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, Anny Road said:

 

Can you be racist against white Europeans?

 

Yes.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, Anny Road said:

 

I would agree that the ‘claim back our country’ mob have been empowered but I would argue that this has as much to do with the disenfranchised section of society finally having an outlet. However wrong and unpalatable that may be.

The disenfranchised have been "given an outlet" and have been steered towards racism (in all its forms) by the leading liars of the Brexit campaign. 

 

That is exactly my point. 

 

A lot of progress on racism was made from the 80s until 2016; then Brexit threw it into reverse.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Anny Road said:

Bigoted yes. Ignorant yes. Xenophobic yes. Racist no.

Has the vote seen an increase in 'send the Blacks home' 'Pakis out'. Imo no it hasn't.

What it has done has allowed those, who see free movement of people as a direct threat, express that view.

Does that mean it is normalised and encouraged? Does it fuck.

 

Two words - "Breaking point".

 

The targeted groups change over time, but racism is still racism.

 

And anyone who sees freedom of movement as a direct threat is falling for the oldest trick in the racist book.

[Anny Road]

I know loads of lads who see free movement as a direct threat because it cost them a couple of hundred quid a week.

The Polish lads are ace and most have married local lasses and have lovely kids and we all get along, but the point is that this was done for the benefit of the employer not the EU Citizen.

Take the wool out of your eyes.

 

SD's bollocks about being denied working rights in 27 countries, fuck off. He wouldn't travel 2 mile for a meal.

The free movement of people is a flexible labour market to benefit employers.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

18 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

I know loads of lads who see free movement as a direct threat because it cost them a couple of hundred quid a week.

The Polish lads are ace and most have married local lasses and have lovely kids and we all get along, but the point is that this was done for the benefit of the employer not the EU Citizen.

Take the wool out of your eyes.

 

The free movement of people is a flexible labour market to benefit employers.

You've fallen for the neocon scam. So have the loads of lads you know.

 

Immigration doesn't cause unemployment and doesn’t depress wages. EU migrants pay more into the economy than they take out.

 

When employers exploit workers - either local workers or immigrant ones - the fault is with the employers who are doing the exploiting (and the successive UK Governments who facilitate it) not the exploited workers.

 

Divide and rule. It's depressing how many times it works.

[Hades]

25 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

You've fallen for the neocon scam. So have the loads of lads you know.

 

Immigration doesn't cause unemployment and doesn’t depress wages. EU migrants pay more into the economy than they take out.

 

When employers exploit workers - either local workers or immigrant ones - the fault is with the employers who are doing the exploiting (and the successive UK Governments who facilitate it) not the exploited workers.

 

Divide and rule. It's depressing how many times it works.

 

If the left refuses to acknowledge that it's poor natives that disproportionately have to deal with the negative social changes of immigration, it will continue to lose on the more important points of unrestricted capitalism.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Hades said:

 

If the left refuses to acknowledge that it's poor natives that disproportionately have to deal with the negative social changes of immigration, it will continue to lose on the more important points of unrestricted capitalism.

And if right-wingers (like your latest internet persona) keep peddling the myth that exploited migrant workers are to blame for the "more important points of unrestricted capitalism" then workers (wherever they come from) don't stand a fucking chance. 

 

This latest character isn't really working, by the way.  Try a religious fundamentalist , or a sex offender or a pirate or something next.

[Hades]

14 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

And if right-wingers (like your latest internet persona) keep peddling the myth that exploited migrant workers are to blame for the "more important points of unrestricted capitalism" then workers (wherever they come from) don't stand a fucking chance. 

 

This latest character isn't really working, by the way.  Try a religious fundamentalist , or a sex offender or a pirate or something next.

My focus is on reducing avoidable sentient suffering, especially of the poor and non-humans. You cannot deny that immigration is another means through which the rich suppress the poor. If you do not see it that way, I would venture that you are lucky. It doesn't follow from that analysis that immigrants should be treated with any less dignity and compassion than natives. The unfortunate anti-immigrant propaganda and racism that follow from such a viewpoint can be explained by the psychological need to rationalise one's decision by villifying the out-group. It's human nature that makes me fundamentally pessimistic we can ever get along.

[Hades]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kill-All-Normies-culture-alt-right/dp/1785355430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540678011&sr=8-1&keywords=angela+nagle

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Capitalist-Realism-There-Alternative-Books/dp/1846943175/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540678011&sr=8-3&keywords=angela+nagle

 

These two books have helped me understand a lot about the extremism going on today. I recommend them.

[Captain Howdy]

Hades what’s your view on antifa these days, I’m not looking to argue  I’m just genuinely interested

[AngryOfTuebrook]

30 minutes ago, Hades said:

My focus is on reducing avoidable sentient suffering, especially of the poor and non-humans. You cannot deny that immigration is another means through which the rich suppress the poor. If you do not see it that way, I would venture that you are lucky. It doesn't follow from that analysis that immigrants should be treated with any less dignity and compassion than natives. The unfortunate anti-immigrant propaganda and racism that follow from such a viewpoint can be explained by the psychological need to rationalise one's decision by villifying the out-group. It's human nature that makes me fundamentally pessimistic we can ever get along.

I do deny that freedom of movement is a tool of suppression.  The argument that it is (which ignores the obvious point that migrant workers cannot be used to undercut local workers if all workers have equal rights, especially in respect of local pay agreements) is a major driver of racism, pitting worker against worker - which is exactly what exploitative employers want.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The UK Government is to host a meeting of Balkan nations to promote the benefits of joining the EU. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-summit-why-join-eu-balkans-serbia-albania-berlin-process-a8347111.html

 

Armando Iannucci is apparently scripting the real world now.

[Hades]

36 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Hades what’s your view on antifa these days, I’m not looking to argue  I’m just genuinely interested

Which former poster were you?

 

It's full of well-meaning but very naive people with a lot of emotional problems that they would do well to first address before attaching themselves to dangerous movements with the prospect of getting themselves hurt.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Apparently loads of people still believe the "£350m for the NHS" lie.

 

Desperate stuff.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html?fbclid=IwAR2k-wa2dxq6e-9dAALhrYY77DdkbIQyyX8Q_TVKzc0izfZ-ZZJtW6gxCjE

[Strontium]

5 hours ago, Anny Road said:

I know loads of lads who see free movement as a direct threat because it cost them a couple of hundred quid a week.

The Polish lads are ace and most have married local lasses and have lovely kids and we all get along, but the point is that this was done for the benefit of the employer not the EU Citizen.

Take the wool out of your eyes.

 

SD's bollocks about being denied working rights in 27 countries, fuck off. He wouldn't travel 2 mile for a meal.

The free movement of people is a flexible labour market to benefit employers.

 

It benefits employers and employees you berk. People wouldn't move for work if they didn't feel it benefited them. Imagine that, freedom benefiting everyone, who would have guessed.

[Gnasher]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:35 PM, AngryofTuebrook said:

6 years before the Referendum. 

 

The rest of the decade prior to the Referendum was under New Labour. 

 

When you're being snarky about "truth-deniers" it's best to get your facts right, otherwise you'll look less than sensible.

 

On 10/25/2018 at 9:35 PM, AngryofTuebrook said:

6 years before the Referendum. 

 

The rest of the decade prior to the Referendum was under New Labour. 

 

When you're being snarky about "truth-deniers" it's best to get your facts right, otherwise you'll look less than sensible.

 

I see new labour/liberal/Tory as pretty much the same thing. They are all pro EU and all one form of austerity or another. They all promote tax breaks for the rich and powerful. They all endorsed benefit cuts on the poor.

 

They can all go fuck themselves.

[Anny Road]

10 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

It benefits employers and employees you berk. People wouldn't move for work if they didn't feel it benefited them. Imagine that, freedom benefiting everyone, who would have guessed.

A lad who works shifts in a warehouse who previously got £30 a night shift allowance. Which was withdrawn as Polish lads get day rate whatever they work.

Unskilled, no language skills, 4 kids and a mortgage. What’s he going to do? Move to Germany with his family and start applying for engineering jobs.

Get real.

For skilled workers the free movement is an opportunity. For manual work it is not. That is who you see in these right wing groups. Poor, unskilled young men.

 

Previoulsy they would be building, driving, labouring. Now they are supposed to work in Tesco and have their wages subsided by the benefits system.

Fuck that. No wonder they are all topping themselves.

[SasaS]

Benefits or adverse effects from free movement of the people are not distributed equally across the population.

One other thing is irrational reaction (fear) to immigration which has been largely dismissed by most of the democratic establishment over the past ten or so years, despite the fact immigration remains to be the most important  issue for majority of voters in most of the western world. "That bigoted woman" keeps popping up and people keep losing elections and referendums and they never seem to learn.

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

 

For skilled workers the free movement is an opportunity. For manual work it is not.

Yeah, I think that’s a pretty clear downside for the richer nations’ working class. The business owners love it because they get cheap Labour. The workers from abroad love it because they get paid a lot of money comparatively to their home country, but the average worker misses out. 

 

And I think the ‘27 countries’ thing is a bit misleading, too. I mean, I highly doubt many Brits, especially manual labour Brits, are queuing up to go to work in Lithuania, Greece, Bulgaria, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, and other similar countries. 

 

As a remainer, I think one of the biggest failures of Remain was acknowledgment of legitimate issues surrounding EU membership, of which there are quite a few. Dismissing it all as racism is daft, even if it was a racists field day. 

 

I would like a union union with the likes of France and Germany, but we have little to benefit from the counties I mentioned earlier that can’t be obtained another way that doesn’t include free movement that is only desirable one way. 

[skend04]

'Immigration' from the EU has been lower than from outside. The irony of this all is that levels won't fall because there are too many old people in the UK and birth rates are in decline. I don't know why MPs let newspapers and the right get away with the constant attack on immigration because it's about to bite the country and the political classes on its arse.

[magicrat]

7 minutes ago, skend04 said:

'Immigration' from the EU has been lower than from outside. The irony of this all is that levels won't fall because there are too many old people in the UK and birth rates are in decline. I don't know why MPs let newspapers and the right get away with the constant attack on immigration because it's about to bite the country and the political classes on its arse.

The right get away with it because they stir up nationalism in millions of xenophobics that either don't know the facts or prefer to ignore them

[Anny Road]

SD. Let me know when you grasp the opportunity of being an admin assistant in Estonia on 1€ an hour.

Enjoy your beetroot.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

38 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

A lad who works shifts in a warehouse who previously got £30 a night shift allowance. Which was withdrawn as Polish lads get day rate whatever they work.

Unskilled, no language skills, 4 kids and a mortgage. What’s he going to do? Move to Germany with his family and start applying for engineering jobs.

Get real.

For skilled workers the free movement is an opportunity. For manual work it is not. That is who you see in these right wing groups. Poor, unskilled young men.

 

Previoulsy they would be building, driving, labouring. Now they are supposed to work in Tesco and have their wages subsided by the benefits system.

Fuck that. No wonder they are all topping themselves.

If the employer had been obliged to pay all workers at the correct rate, then he wouldn't be able to undercut that lad by bringing in an exploited, underpaid workforce. (The fact that employers are able to exploit workers this way is entirely the responsibility of successive UK governments: it's not an EU policy and leaving the EU just means that they will find other ways of exploiting us.)

 

Workers blaming each other is exactly what the employers and the ruling classes depend on.  I refuse to fall for it.