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Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
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317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


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I'm not convinced that the Tories wouldn’t get battered if they called a General Election tomorrow; and nor are they, which is why it won't happen. They got burned by their "crush the saboteurs" hubris so they've re-learned the central tenet of Toryism: when you've got power, do anything to hold on to it.

 

The current turmoil in the party just means that the racists and the neoliberal fundamentalists are in the ascendancy.  These are the people who will be in charge of Brexit.  It will happen on their terms.

 

I don't envy anyone in the room with Gnasher when he wakes up to that fact.

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14 hours ago, Anny Road said:

 

As predicted about 400 pages ago

and to agree with gnasher, who gets undeserved shit from apparently tolerant liberals for having a different view, don’t ever recall him giving anyone personal abuse but he gets a fair bit,

This is is the destruction of the Conservative Party. It cannot survive this parliamentary term. No way.

Labours moment of tipping will come but at the moment this is all on the Tories.

People have mentioned that the right of the Tory party view the hardship as a price worth paying for UK freedom.

I view this as a price worth paying to bin the Conservative Party.

If taken at face value (I don't), Gnasher is at best a fantasist and and at worst a liar. That's not an ad hominem attack, it's based on observable evidence. Only this week, Andrew Rawnsley called John Smith "the most pro-European leader in [Labour]’s history". This is the John Smith who Gnasher had running on a platform of leaving the EEC. If that's who you want to look to for validation of your opinions, sup with a long spoon.

 

As for the Tories imploding, they got 13,636,684 votes at the last election. That was correctly considered a bad result. They're not going anywhere.

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Draft French law preparing emergency measures for "hard" #Brexit. It has yet to be debated, but contains following clauses:

 

1. After no agreement Brexit, UK citizens become third nation citizens and will be obliged to have a visa to come to France and a carte de sejour to stay.

 

Britons already living in France will find themselves in an "irregular situation" and will have to seek legal documents to remain.

 

2. UK citizens currently legally employed in France by a French employer could be asked to obtain a work permit, as required by any foreign workers, to avoid the employer being taken to court for having non-authorised workers under the Code du Travail.

 

3. A no-deal #Brexit could affect certain professions (including medic and pharmacist) where only citizens of EU or EEC member states are allowed to exercise those jobs in France.

 

4. As French public service jobs (including teachers) are open only to French citizens and in some sectors EU/EEC citizens, UK nationals in a public service job are not covered. New legislation needed.

 

5. UK citizens legally resident in France will no longer have automatic access to French social security system. Need for new laws to address how they contribute and what benefits they get. Questions over reciprocal access for those who have contributed in UK

 

6. No-deal Brexit will lead to reintroduction of controls on goods and passengers to and from the UK. Animal and vegetal goods from UK will have to undergo veterinary and phytosanitary checks at EU borders.

 

7. No-deal Brexit will have "particularly serious" consequences on the transportation of goods and people to and from the UK. Licences to transport people and goods may be invalid unless the EU adopts contingency measures. This will depend on UK adopting reciprocal measures.

 

8. British financial institutions become "third party firms" and will lose their "European passport". This, says paper, will create an "unusual situation". Legal measures may be necessary for security reasons to avoid delays in financial transfers.

 

9. The measures in the bill will attempt to ensure smooth passage for goods and people via the Channel Tunnel.

 

10. Document says: "Suffice to say, the measures finally adopted will depend above all on the outcome of current negotiations, at this stage impossible to guess." Says some proposed measures could depend on what the RU decides to do.

 

11. Important paragraph for UK citizens in France and French in UK. "The Government is very aware of the situation and rights of French citizens settled in the UK...

 

12. "...The Government will take appropriate measures regarding the situation of UK citizens in France. IT WILL TAKE ACCOUNT OF THE STATUS THE UK GIVES OUR CITIZENS ON ITS TERRITORY". Here is full draft bill: http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html 

 

13. To be clear. This draft bill lays out legal situation in the event of a "hard" no-deal Brexit. The draft law is saying that legislative measures will be necessary to deal with these consequences but making it clear such measures will be reciprocal. So under current French law, UK citizens will need a visa, carte de sejour etc., after a no-deal Brexit. Question is: can France make bilateral agreement with UK over no-visa travel?

 

15. Repeat: this is what automatically happens under French law in event of no-deal Brexit. Will it happen? Who knows. In this draft bill, the French government is mandating itself to pass new laws to address those consequences by decree within 12 months. "Reciprocity" key word.

 

As I've been accused of misleading over the draft French bill on a no-deal Brexit. So, to be clear...the doc outlines what happens under French law on 11pm 29/03/2019 in event of a no-deal Brexit and the areas in which measures may have to be taken. http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html 

 

It outlines 7 areas of concern. 1. "In the event of a withdrawal without agreement, British citizens who until now had the right to free movement and free settlement in the whole EU, as well as family members, become third country citizens and will...

 

...as a consequence be subject, in principle, to common law, that's to day obliged to present a visa to enter French territory and hold a residence permit to remain there...." It goes on to talk about obligations for 90+ stays.

 

2. The emplolyment of British citizens legally exercising a salaried professional activity in France at the day of the withdrawal. "In case of a withdrawal without agreement, British citizens under a work contract under French law with an employer in France could be asked for a document authorising them to work in France, as the regulations require when employing foreigners in the labour law. Without such a document, the employer could be made legally responsible of breaking the law regarding the employment of foreigners not authorised to work."

 

Paragraph 3. Covering the exercising of a person in France at the date of withdrawal of an activity or profession subject to conditions. Says certain professions (open to EU or EEC members) might be closed to British citizens exercising those professions in France.

 

This same paragraph also covers those UK citizens exercising "activities subject to legal or regulated status" ie "composition of capital" in certain societies and holdings.

 

Paragraph 4. Rules applicable to titled agents and internsof British nationality in public offices. This cites the Le Pors Law, stating that only French citizens or in certain circumstances, EU or EEC citizens can hold certain public jobs. "As a consequence, when the UK becomes a third state, its citizens will not be able to be a public worker under French law. It is therefore necessary to adopt a legal measure to resolve the situation for UK nationals holding a post or interns in public service".

 

Addendum to para3: No deal withdrawal "will have consequences on the exercise of certain professions, notably doctor, chemist or tobacconist, required to hold the nationality of an EU or EEC nationality.These professions could be withheld from UK citizens exercising in France."

 

Paragraph 5: relative to the rights of British citizens legally resident in France at the date of withdrawal of legislation relative to their rights to social services (welfare).

 

Paragraph 6: The controls on passengers and goods to and from the UK and veterinary and phytosanitary goods from the UK. "A withdrawal from the EU without a deal, will result in the reestablishing of formalities/ controls on goods and passengers to and from the UK..."

 

This paragraph goes on to say veterinary and phytosanitary controls are overseen by EU regulation and have to be carried out in control posts authorised by the EC.

 

Paragraph 7 covers freight and passenger road transport operations. "The consequences of a no-deal exit of the RU from the EU will be particularly heavy in the road transport of people and goods sector, the rules of access...being defined by EU law".

 

Aside: last week a member of the French hauliers association told us a 2 minute delay caused by customs and border checks could lead to a 27 km tailback on roads around main French Channel ports.

 

The document then outlines that the Draft Law covers the above 7 areas and states it gives the government authority to take the necessary measures by "decree", as opposed to parliamentary vote, within 12 months from official publication of the law.

 

 

 

 

 

The things I do for you lot.

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What is it about the Brits and putting up borders and displacing people from their homes and lives?

 

That Dicky what's his moustache, who did that Chatuex up, will be gutted. He spent a pretty penny on the refurbishment that was shown on Ch4. Perhaps he could do a follow up where he wrecks the joint before being turfed out by the French as a two-finger to the system.

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Yerrrrrssssss! The chlorinated chicken dream gets a step closer! 

 

"Wilbur Ross, Trump's Secretary of Commerce, said last October that scrapping strict EU standards in areas like food hygiene and agriculture would be a "critical component" to any post-Brexit UK-US free trade deal."

 

https://www.businessinsider.de/trump-uk-must-bin-unjustified-food-standards-for-brexit-trade-deal-2018-10?r=UK&IR=T

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, deiseach said:

If taken at face value (I don't), Gnasher is at best a fantasist and and at worst a liar. That's not an ad hominem attack, it's based on observable evidence. Only this week, Andrew Rawnsley called John Smith "the most pro-European leader in [Labour]’s history". This is the John Smith who Gnasher had running on a platform of leaving the EEC. If that's who you want to look to for validation of your opinions, sup with a long spoon.

 

As for the Tories imploding, they got 13,636,684 votes at the last election. That was correctly considered a bad result. They're not going anywhere.

Liar? The Tory party is split to the seems over Europe, it's membership is less than momentum, it's an old and dying institution. 

 

I does need staking through the heart though because you never know the power of evil and evil is where they operate and control.

 

I honestly believe a Tory govt. Calling the people out on a vote that would ultimately cause their own death is fucking glorious, and imo the EU can fuck off as well. 

 

 

SORRY.

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3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The left wing liberals telling a welder from Wetherby who has experienced mass unemployment and 10 y years of austerity  to vote for another 10 years of absolute bollocks? Sorry fuck off.. 

You've still not moved on from your initial error of equating the EU with neoliberalism and austerity.  As long as you build your arguments on that falsehood, all your arguments will be wrong.

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