Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Anny Road]

Seems Greece are doing better than us

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/greek-economy-now-growing-faster-than-the-uk-2017-9

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-debt-factbox/how-much-greece-owes-to-international-creditors-idUSKCN0P80XW20150628

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Greece, which may default on an International Monetary Fund debt repayment due on Tuesday after talks with creditors broke down, owes its official lenders 242.8 billion euros ($271 billion), according to a Reuters calculation based on official data, with Germany by far the largest creditor.

 

THE EURO ZONE - Euro zone governments gave Greece 52.9 billion euros in bilateral loans under the first bailout agreed in 2010, known as the Greek Loan Facility. Under the second bailout agreed in 2012 Athens has so far received 141.8 billion euros from the euro zone’s financial rescue fund. It had been due a further 1.8 billion euros by June 30 if it met conditions but barring major surprises that is off the table.

 

Of the biggest euro zone members, Germany’s exposure for the two bailouts totals 57.23 billion euros, France’s is 42.98 billion, Italy’s is 37.76 billion and Spain’s 25.1 billion. That is in addition to their contributions to the IMF loans, commensurate with their respective quotas in the global lender.

[magicrat]

I wouldn't wish to lecture anyone who voted leave on what to do.

 

But - after seeing the minister responsible for negotiating Brexit - admitting that we haven't 'bothered' with any impact assessments, listening to the likes of Grayling talk up walking away with  no deal as being an option. Do you not look at this behaviour and think 'I am not sure they are telling us the truth about leaving'?

 

And if so, would you change your vote?

 

Do you not think many that did vote leave need lecturing ?  Ignorance about the impact of migrants, the positive benefits they bring on balance to our economy and public services,  The opportunities that don't exist to trade with the rest of the world, the extra revenue for the health service which was a blatant lie and the small but vocal number of racist knobheads that think vote Leave means we kick out all the Muslamics, 

[Jockey]

I agree with most of that, Remain is by far the least worst option,  Said many times the EU is not a level playing field and transparency in many areas is lacking or in some cases missing completely. It keeps the peace and allows its citizens to travel , work and live across the continent which to my mind is worth a hell of lot and something that my kids have benefited from and should remain a right for all young people.

Britain should be at the centre driving reforms not blaming its own failures on Brussels,   

 

 

Yep. I think the Remain campaign should have focussed upon us being central to EU, the benefits that would ultimately lead to. Whatever you say about Blair he did have the UK influencing Europe, something I believe the smaller nations wanted. They needed an alternative to the German/French alliance. Focussing upon the economic argument just enabled the Leave campaign to lie.

[magicrat]

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-debt-factbox/how-much-greece-owes-to-international-creditors-idUSKCN0P80XW20150628

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Greece, which may default on an International Monetary Fund debt repayment due on Tuesday after talks with creditors broke down, owes its official lenders 242.8 billion euros ($271 billion), according to a Reuters calculation based on official data, with Germany by far the largest creditor.

 

THE EURO ZONE - Euro zone governments gave Greece 52.9 billion euros in bilateral loans under the first bailout agreed in 2010, known as the Greek Loan Facility. Under the second bailout agreed in 2012 Athens has so far received 141.8 billion euros from the euro zone’s financial rescue fund. It had been due a further 1.8 billion euros by June 30 if it met conditions but barring major surprises that is off the table.

 

Of the biggest euro zone members, Germany’s exposure for the two bailouts totals 57.23 billion euros, France’s is 42.98 billion, Italy’s is 37.76 billion and Spain’s 25.1 billion. That is in addition to their contributions to the IMF loans, commensurate with their respective quotas in the global lender.

 

 

 

Yes they owe more than they can ever hope to pay. They still wont be allowed to go down the tubes though

[Jockey]

Do you not think many that did vote leave need lecturing ?  Ignorance about the impact of migrants, the positive benefits they bring on balance to our economy and public services,  The opportunities that don't exist to trade with the rest of the world, the extra revenue for the health service which was a blatant lie and the small but vocal number of racist knobheads that think vote Leave means we kick out all the Muslamics, 

 

Not really, as it doesn't work! (although I am absolutely fuming with those who voted leave).

 

Immigration is a boom for all politicans - blame them, as oppossed to the more complicated problems that immigration can bring e.g. stretched resources, schools, health and housing etc.

[Neil G]

Guest, Anny and anybody else who thinks we should use the divorce bill as leverage: if the negotiations weren't time limited you'd have a point, but they are. The Article 50 clock is ticking and in practice we now have less than a year to agree a trade deal, and we haven't even got started on talks yet. If we dig in and argue over the divorce bill we'll eat up even more time, get closer to a no deal scenario and weaken our negotiating position further with every day that passes. Especially as big companies are going to start activating their contingency plans and relocating soon if no progress is made this month. That could easily be the trigger for a crash of 2008 proportions in this country, which would see the government crawling to the EU on its hands and knees by this time next year.

 

Even if no trade deal is made before Brexit happens, the payment is still a worthwhile investment. When a future government looks to make a deal or even rejoin the EU, an unpaid divorce bill would be a non-negotiable obstacle to even getting started. Saying "fuck it, we'll keep our money" will bring us long-term hurt that far outweighs the short-term benefits of keeping the cash.

[magicrat]

Not really, as it doesn't work! (although I am absolutely fuming with those who voted leave).

 

Immigration is a boom for all politicans - blame them, as oppossed to the more complicated problems that immigration can bring e.g. stretched resources, schools, health and housing etc.

 

It doesn't work in most cases as people are always loathe to admit their mistakes when they have a choice,  You see it in microcosm on here when people argue black is white ad infinitum,  I think the message does need to be rammed home because a secret ballot is another matter .

People can do the right thing without admitting they were fooled the first time around,

[Anny Road]

Neil.

I'm not suggesting what we owe should not be paid. As mentioned earlier the 50 bill figure is approx 5-6 years net contributions and I do not see why the deadline for full extraction cannot be extended into a transition period of around that timescale for the benefit of all parties.

 

If at the end of the discussions the EU decide to shaft us to engineer a political argument then they should be met with a robust and defiant fuck you.

Someone will then have to fund then deficit in projected expenditure and they can explain that to their electorate when raising tax.

[The Guest]

Guest, Anny and anybody else who thinks we should use the divorce bill as leverage: if the negotiations weren't time limited you'd have a point, but they are. The Article 50 clock is ticking and in practice we now have less than a year to agree a trade deal, and we haven't even got started on talks yet. If we dig in and argue over the divorce bill we'll eat up even more time, get closer to a no deal scenario and weaken our negotiating position further with every day that passes. Especially as big companies are going to start activating their contingency plans and relocating soon if no progress is made this month. That could easily be the trigger for a crash of 2008 proportions in this country, which would see the government crawling to the EU on its hands and knees by this time next year.

 

Even if no trade deal is made before Brexit happens, the payment is still a worthwhile investment. When a future government looks to make a deal or even rejoin the EU, an unpaid divorce bill would be a non-negotiable obstacle to even getting started. Saying "fuck it, we'll keep our money" will bring us long-term hurt that far outweighs the short-term benefits of keeping the cash.

That’s a reasonable argument Neil and a lot better than most of the posters on here have come back with.

 

I don’t agree with the time limited point though. You’re right that the time is limited obviously but I don’t agree that it makes our position any weaker or stronger it just means a decision has to be made. If there was no deadline it would just drag on and on. The deadline means that something has to happen. The EU have to start talking trade or Britain has to walk away with no deal.

 

The only way our position is made weaker is if the govt never had any intention of walking away. Maybe that’s what you’re assuming. That’s not out of the question obviously when you read what Hammond said yesterday. If the Govt hasn’t got the balls to walk away then this stand off really has been a waste of time. If they are willing to walk away though, which I personally think they are, then they are doing exactly what they should be doing. Trying as hard as they can to get a good trade deal with the only leverage they have.

 

I think the argument about it being an obstacle to rejoining is right. It would make things really difficult but at the same time it’s an expensive payment to keep an organisation happy that you don’t have any intention of rejoining. On top of this I think the EU would be happy for us to come crawling back in a few years. Everything would be on their terms and they would be getting a net positive in terms of imports/exports rejoining. I don’t think it’s something the Govt should consider when leaving.

 

50bn is a lot of money that could be spent rebuilding industries here in the long term. If we just paid it to the EU it would be forgotten about in a year as a payment we should have made to them anyway while they try to fuck us over and make sure we fail so no other members leave.

 

The whole thing is fucking mental and I wish it had never happened. I think people like Davis and Gove knew exactly what it would do to the economy but are of the opinion being in the EU is a false economy in itself. They would rather have a smaller GDP etc and potentially more unemployed just to have less immigrants in the country. I reckon a lot of the people in this country who voted leave would also agree with that. The problem with their campaign was that they didn’t say that and they still aren’t. They would have lost the vote saying it because there are too many idiots who don’t realise the economic impact of leaving and that may have woken them up.

[deiseach]

You see it in microcosm on here when people argue black is white ad infinitum,

 

Why are my ears burning?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Nice....

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1532182693497119&id=168837296498339

[Anubis]

Ha, ha, ha.  Rees-Mogg and Sammy Wilson shit out of a trip to the Irish border in case the Ra get them.

 

 

 

He was giving evidence to the Brexit select committee which is making its first visit to the Irish border since the referendum.

 

Two key members of the committee, Conservative MP and Brexiteer Jacob Rees Mogg and Democratic Unionist Party MP and Brexiteer Sammy Wilson have snubbed the trip.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

That knob head Rees-Mogg said if Brexit is reneged on he'd leave the country. 

[Anny Road]

That knob head Rees-Mogg said if Brexit is reneged on he'd leave the country. 

I've changed my vote to remain. Can he take Boris Nobhead with him.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I've changed my vote to remain. Can he take Boris Nobhead with him.

 

Preferably on some dodgy camping trip in the outbacks of Australia. 

[magicrat]

That knob head Rees-Mogg said if Brexit is reneged on he'd leave the country. 

 

Bring it on the worthless piece of shite,   

[Jockey]

That knob head Rees-Mogg said if Brexit is reneged on he'd leave the country. 

 

Haha - no he wouldn't!

 

 

Just like the majority of leave voters won't leave. Primarily because they are too fucking old to move, and won't give up their benefits that they are so willingly denying the younger generations.

[Anubis]

That knob head Rees-Mogg said if Brexit is reneged on he'd leave the country. 

 

 

Well there's an incentive.

[Anny Road]

He'd probably go somewhere nice like the South of France or Italian Riviera, nice people, good climate, decent economy.

[A Red]

I'm seeing the continued use of the word "leverage" please stop

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Nice....

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1532182693497119&id=168837296498339

"Content not found"

 

What was it?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I'm seeing the continued use of the word "leverage" please stop

LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE. LEVERAGE.

[cloggypop]

When the leverage breaks

[Guest Pistonbroke]

"Content not found"

 

What was it?

 

Some Romanian or this bird who knows him had a question about a New Years party reservation at a Hotel/Restaurant thing. The bloke who replied was a racist bell end. Cracked a load of really shit one liners about bringing an adult or summit like that, then called him a Slavic cunt. The bird then answered and ripped him/her a new one. 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

'Leaverage' NO

 

Stoppage Yes!