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Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
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317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


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Point 1 on the house thing. I’ve seen this type of analogy now about 100 times and it’s complete bullshit. I could easily just come up with another one. Imagine you bought a house with your bird and then you break up. You decide to move out and your bird has got more than enough money to buy you out but instead decides she wants you to pay up your half of the mortgage but you don’t get any benefits if owning the house or living in it.

 

It’s as much nonsense as your analogy. When that budget was agreed we were getting all the free trade benefits that the EU want to stop us from getting when we leave. The fact of the matter is we can leave without paying a penny. The most recent EU could do is refuse to trade with us which would never happen in a million years because they’ve got too much to lose. What will likely happen is they will put tariffs on us which is what they will do anyway. The 50bn Brexit bill is the only leverage the UK has on a good trade deal and it can and does appear to be using it. The EU kicking and squirming every day in the press about it is showing their hand massively. It just a shame so many braindead drones like yourself can’t see past your own blind position.

 

The second thing on the borders is fucking comical. I don’t know how many times I have to point it out but why is it the UK’s problem if the EU doesn’t want poorer quality chicken coming through the border. It’s the EU and Ireland’s. If they want to put a border up then go ahead but that’s on them not us.

Your analogy fails because this isn't a mutual break up.  This is unilaterally deciding to dump your missus; of course, by this point you've got shared assets and shared liabilities, so you need to decide how they are divvied up.

 

Don't overestimate how much the EU have to lose.  If we are threatening to flood them with shitty chickens, then they will impose the hard borders and pull the plug on any trade deals.

 

Finally, have a little read about the Irish Peace Process and the importance of free movement and cooperation between the republic and the north in the last 20 years.  If either side unilaterally imposes a border - or makes the imposition of a border inevitable - then the economic and social impacts will be felt on both sides; probably hardest in the Remain-voting north, where a return to violence is far from an impossibility.

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Your analogy fails because this isn't a mutual break up. This is unilaterally deciding to dump your missus; of course, by this point you've got shared assets and shared liabilities, so you need to decide how they are divvied up.

 

Don't overestimate how much the EU have to lose. If we are threatening to flood them with shitty chickens, then they will impose the hard borders and pull the plug on any trade deals.

 

Finally, have a little read about the Irish Peace Process and the importance of free movement and cooperation between the republic and the north in the last 20 years. If either side unilaterally imposes a border - or makes the imposition of a border inevitable - then the economic and social impacts will be felt on both sides; probably hardest in the Remain-voting north, where a return to violence is far from an impossibility.

I understand this has dragged on for a number of posts now but this has already been covered. I said my analogy was nonsense as it was. You can’t compare a marriage break up or you taking out a mortgage and then deciding bit to pay it to a country pulling out of the EU. It’s complete rubbish.

 

What I’m trying to say really is simple. It’s pretty stupid economically for the UK to just pay up the Brexit bill without anything in place to confirm a free (or close to) trade deal. If we just pay it the EU can and probably will just screw us over anyway so why would we? People’s only response to this so far is to start telling me it’s morally wrong, we should pay our debts because I have to pay my overdraft bla bla and it’s got nothing to with the trade deal etc which is all just emotion filled nonsense.

 

The UK can walk away and pay nothing. That is an option whether people want to believe it or not. It will fuck up the relationship with the EU but by the looks of it, it’s fucked anyway so why cost ourselves 50bn?

 

The Irish border was an off chute of a similar nature. I doubt the UK are bothered about installing a border for the exact reasons you mention. The only people who will try to enforce one will be the EU for the other reasons you mentioned. This isn’t the UK’s problem really.

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Honestly what is the issue with this? Why can nobody on here seem to accept that there’s fuck all point in paying the Brexit bill if it doesn’t benefit us. It’s almost like if you accept it you’ve lost the argument. It’s a simple point. Leaving is still a bad thing. You’re right about them having no reason to give us a good deal. Why would they and should they? If the UK make a success of it then other EU members might fancy doing it as well.

 

The only reason to give any concessions at all is a big 50bn black hole in the budget for the next 3 years which will have to come out of the other EU member states finances instead. You can pretend that isn’t leverage but it clearly is.

 

In terms of the leave camps bravado disappearing you will have to ask them, I have no idea.

 

And now some more analogies. This one about card games and shuffling decks. In reality the positions of both sides haven’t really moved in the whole time since the activation of article 50. I doubt they will move at all until the last possible moment.

 

I may be completely wrong but I can’t see the government just paying 50bn and then coming out with a deal as bad as no deal because they gave away their leverage. The tories would never recover.

50 billion isn't really leverage.  Compared to the really big numbers around trade between the UK and EU it's not exactly peanuts, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

 

If we say "fuck you, we're not paying" we lose all credibility with everyone.  We would be left to negotiate trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world on unfavourable terms (or not at all).  Any major international business based in the UK is likely to reconsider it's position and either relocate to the EU or do a Nissan - get the Government to give them a blowie in a broom closet to persuade them to stay.

 

The negotiations are going badly not just because the leaders of the UK's negotiating team are incompetent (and they really are!) but also because our negotiating position is fundamentally and irredeemably piss-weak.

 

It was always going to be this way.

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I understand this has dragged on for a number of posts now but this has already been covered. I said my analogy was nonsense as it was. You can’t compare a marriage break up or you taking out a mortgage and then deciding bit to pay it to a country pulling out of the EU. It’s complete rubbish.

 

What I’m trying to say really is simple. It’s pretty stupid economically for the UK to just pay up the Brexit bill without anything in place to confirm a free (or close to) trade deal. If we just pay it the EU can and probably will just screw us over anyway so why would we? People’s only response to this so far is to start telling me it’s morally wrong, we should pay our debts because I have to pay my overdraft bla bla and it’s got nothing to with the trade deal etc which is all just emotion filled nonsense.

 

The UK can walk away and pay nothing. That is an option whether people want to believe it or not. It will fuck up the relationship with the EU but by the looks of it, it’s fucked anyway so why cost ourselves 50bn?

 

The Irish border was an off chute of a similar nature. I doubt the UK are bothered about installing a border for the exact reasons you mention. The only people who will try to enforce one will be the EU for the other reasons you mentioned. This isn’t the UK’s problem really.

You haven't addressed Rico's post that it is in the UK's economic interest to pay the divorce bill.  As a lot of people have said, throwing a hissy fit would harm the UK economy to a much greater degree that 50bn.

 

And Northern Ireland is in the UK.  Many Brexit voters are bothered about securing a border, because they voted to "take back control" and keep those bally foreigners out.  Free movement of people throughout the EU will apply as far as Monaghan and Donegal, come what may.  Without a border, it will then equally apply throughout the whole of the UK.  This is the circle that can't be squared.  The 50bn is just routine stuff that any competent negotiator can handle: it's a sideshow.  The Irish border is where "Brexit means Brexit" will be defined.

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Bar one interpretation of the treaties by the Peers has anyone else said we don't have to pay a penny to the EU? Has it been tested in an international court and if not then half of The Guest's assertions are just twaddle.

 

If we walk away with no deal then a border will go up otherwise Ireland are liable in the ECJ for breaching the integrity of the single market and the UK are breaching WTO rules. That's a spiffing way to start on a journey of world trade, by being a rogue state.

 

If it was all as simple as The Guest believes then why are we employing thousands more civil servants and why are numerous legal bods beavering away on all the issues that have arisen. That's several pages and numerous paragraphs of nonsense posted on here in the hope of appearing like you know something that hundreds of people employed to look at Brexit don't know.

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50 billion isn't really leverage. Compared to the really big numbers around trade between the UK and EU it's not exactly peanuts, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

 

If we say "fuck you, we're not paying" we lose all credibility with everyone. We would be left to negotiate trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world on unfavourable terms (or not at all). Any major international business based in the UK is likely to reconsider it's position and either relocate to the EU or do a Nissan - get the Government to give them a blowie in a broom closet to persuade them to stay.

 

The negotiations are going badly not just because the leaders of the UK's negotiating team are incompetent (and they really are!) but also because our negotiating position is fundamentally and irredeemably piss-weak.

 

It was always going to be this way.

If it wasn’t leverage then why would the EU just agree to discuss it whilst or after the trade deal then? It really is simple. I can’t understand how you are failing to see that. Also why wouldn’t the UK have just agreed a figure?

 

All I’m seeing again is the same old nonsense. “We will lose credibility.” With who exactly? We are left to negotiate with the EU anyway and they want us to fail so why give them 50bn to just do what they’re going to do anyway? The rest of the world aren’t going to give a shit that we didn’t pay the EU 50bn into a budget that has no impact on them. Again just complete nonsense. They will want to negotiate a trade deal that will benefit their country. They’re not going to say “we aren’t taking you’re money you didn’t settle a bill with the EU.” Do you realise how stupid that sounds?

 

Any major business here is going to reconsider its position here because we are leaving the EU. It will have nothing to do with us paying the Brexit bill. You’re just muddying the waters on the specific point.

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You haven't addressed Rico's post that it is in the UK's economic interest to pay the divorce bill. As a lot of people have said, throwing a hissy fit would harm the UK economy to a much greater degree that 50bn.

 

And Northern Ireland is in the UK. Many Brexit voters are bothered about securing a border, because they voted to "take back control" and keep those bally foreigners out. Free movement of people throughout the EU will apply as far as Monaghan and Donegal, come what may. Without a border, it will then equally apply throughout the whole of the UK. This is the circle that can't be squared. The 50bn is just routine stuff that any competent negotiator can handle: it's a sideshow. The Irish border is where "Brexit means Brexit" will be defined.

I ignored Rico’s post because he’s a boring Tory who writes nonsense. Ive just gone back to it to see what the content was to find out I did the right thing in the first place. The article he posted said that there was a benefit of paying the Brexit bill if it gained access to free trade which is what I’ve been writing now for the past 10 posts or so. It seems he’s another one of these guys who thinks he can post something and link an article hoping nobody will read it because that was not what was written in it. The article was another opinion article from the independent as well and with not much on the facts side but that I happen to agree with.

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Bar one interpretation of the treaties by the Peers has anyone else said we don't have to pay a penny to the EU? Has it been tested in an international court and if not then half of The Guest's assertions are just twaddle.

 

If we walk away with no deal then a border will go up otherwise Ireland are liable in the ECJ for breaching the integrity of the single market and the UK are breaching WTO rules. That's a spiffing way to start on a journey of world trade, by being a rogue state.

 

If it was all as simple as The Guest believes then why are we employing thousands more civil servants and why are numerous legal bods beavering away on all the issues that have arisen. That's several pages and numerous paragraphs of nonsense posted on here in the hope of appearing like you know something that hundreds of people employed to look at Brexit don't know.

Has any of this been tested in an international court? Why would we be a rogue state? We wouldn’t be a member of the WTO if we leave the EU. The government have said time and again they are willing to walk away and not pay a penny. Not they may not actually be willing to do that. It will remain to be seen but the fact it’s been mentioned means it’s clearly a possibility. At the end of the day what can they do if we don’t pay? Give us a bad trade deal? That’s all they are going to do anyway.

 

We are employing thousands of civil servants who are all looking at Brexit and one of the options that’s come out of the people who are employing them all is to leave without paying anything. Did that one just completely go over your head?

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I ignored Rico’s post because he’s a boring Tory who writes nonsense. Ive just gone back to it to see what the content was to find out I did the right thing in the first place. The article he posted said that there was a benefit of paying the Brexit bill if it gained access to free trade which is what I’ve been writing now for the past 10 posts or so. It seems he’s another one of these guys who thinks he can post something and link an article hoping nobody will read it because that was not what was written in it. The article was another opinion article from the independent as well and with not much on the facts side but that I happen to agree with.

That the best endorsement I could have hoped for thanks.

 

The idea that you alone have seen through the fog and has the solution is lovely.

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Has any of this been tested in an international court? Why would we be a rogue state? We wouldn’t be a member of the WTO if we leave the EU. The government have said time and again they are willing to walk away and not pay a penny. Not they may not actually be willing to do that. It will remain to be seen but the fact it’s been mentioned means it’s clearly a possibility. At the end of the day what can they do if we don’t pay? Give us a bad trade deal? That’s all they are going to do anyway.

 

We are employing thousands of civil servants who are all looking at Brexit and one of the options that’s come out of the people who are employing them all is to leave without paying anything. Did that one just completely go over your head?

Actually nah, you're just wumming here. So you carry on bashing that keyboard pal, I'll check one of the NSFW threads.

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That the best endorsement I could have hoped for thanks.

 

The idea that you alone have seen through the fog and has the solution is lovely.

Now if I was using your approach I would say here’s a link to the solution and actually post a link to an article discussing rainbows. I don’t claim to have the solution. I’m asking why the UK should pay the Brexit bill and the. Discuss trade after it. Uf it gives no guarantee whatsoever to a better trade deal then it surely makes sense to not give them any money. All I’ve seen in response is basically “you can’t do that it’s nasty, what if you had a credit card, prove to me in a court of law that you can do that although I don’t have to prove to you in a court of law that you could be forced to pay, here’s an article saying that if you get a free trade deal then it’s worth paying the Brexit bill (I’m still amazed that you actually posted that).” Followed up by “I’m not responding to you” and sarcastic “you’re too clever posts” which don’t refute anything I’ve said.

 

It’s all opinion at the end of the day and as I’ve said a few times I am a remainer. Given the choice I’d prefer we stay. We are leaving though and I don’t see the point in doing stupid things like paying the Brexit bill just because a load of gimps are still crying about a democratic vote they lost and can’t think clearly because the EU’s cock is in and around their face.

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Meanwhile, before Parliamentary Committee, David Davies is busy telling us how the government don't actually have any Brexit assessments, only some data which may be useful and which they've turned into a report. Shockingly, they have not actually carried out any detailed assessments for the impact of Brexit, despite what they've previously said in Parliament. He's basically coughed to lying to the house. Colour me surprised.

 

 

 

Seema Malhotra@SeemaMalhotra1

 

.@DavidDavisMP has just admitted that the Government have not conducted a single economic impact assessments on the impact to Brexit to our economy. Staggeringly. A dereliction of duty. #brexitshambles

 


 

I was told in an FOI from DExEU that they held the Brexit #impactassessments but the Govt needed a "safe space", then they delayed in handing them over, then apparently they didn't exist and now haven't even started, Incredible.


 

Thomas Cole

 

David Davis has just stated that he did not think that a no deal #brexit would see a shortage of nurses in the UK, this is despite there having been a 96% drop in nurses from the EU registering in the UK since the referendum 

 

 

I was told in an FOI from DExEU that they held the Brexit #impactassessments but the Govt needed a "safe space", then they delayed in handing them over, then apparently they didn't exist and now haven't even started, Incredible.

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Meanwhile, before Parliamentary Committee, David Davies is busy telling us how the government don't actually have any Brexit assessments, only some data which may be useful and which they've turned into a report. Shockingly, they have not actually carried out any detailed assessments for the impact of Brexit, despite what they've previously said in Parliament. He's basically coughed to lying to the house. Colour me surprised.

He's just confirmed that no assessment was been made of leaving the customs union before Team Tory decided to leave the customs union.

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Back in the real world not paying would create years and years of uncertainty- exactly what business hates. It’d cost millions and all with no guarantee of success. Plus we wouldn’t be able to negotiate a trade deal until it was completed so we’d be fucked.

Back in the real world if we paid the Brexit bill that doesn’t stop uncertainty. There’s nothing to stop the EU no dealing us after we pay it.

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He's just confirmed that no assessment was been made of leaving the customs union before Team Tory decided to leave the customs union.

 

Bit like not wanting to put your head out from under the covers in case the the bogey man is waiting.

 

These cunts are just unbelievable. Quite honestly you wouldn't run a corner shop without doing impact assessments if you planned to move premises, The whole Brexit house of cards must be pretty close to collapse right now.

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Bit like not wanting to put your head out from under the covers in case the the bogey man is waiting.

 

These cunts are just unbelievable. Quite honestly you wouldn't run a corner shop without doing impact assessments if you planned to move premises, The whole Brexit house of cards must be pretty close to collapse right now.

On the plus side there's only a week or so to go before we're put out of our misery.

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