Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[dennis tooth]

"The EU has ratified new rules on public sector procurement that will open up the £450bn a year market to smaller contractors and allow governments to outsource services such as healthcare, social care and education more quickly.

 

The UK, Europe’s biggest outsourcing market, has been pushing Brussels to make the changes, which will make it possible to blacklist suppliers that have consistently failed to deliver.

 

The rules will also streamline the procurement process to enable smaller contractors to compete for government contracts across the continent. The EU says public procurement account for about 18 per cent of the bloc’s gross domestic product.

 

 

The new outsourcing rules are to be introduced by all member states within two years. But the UK plans to adopt the changes ahead of schedule as it pushes ahead with plans to outsource more services and at the same time tries to allay fears that taxpayers’ money is being badly spent"

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/346194f6-7dcc-11e3-b409-00144feabdc0

[VladimirIlyich]

I am not even going to read thos links as I know that the Tories have been vehemently opposed to it since its formation in the 1940s and have constantly done their best to starve it of funds and undermine it. Anything the EU may have directed(this is only a suggestion remember) to its detriment would have needed no persuasion of the Tories to do. For all his many faults(and there are many) it was pretty amazing that the NHS was actually in a decent state under Blair and we were EU members then too.

[dennis tooth]

It's no skin off my nose of you want to bury your head in the lovely soft sand.

[dennis tooth]

Blair introduced privatisation into the nhs and crippled many hospitals with PFI sowing the seeds for Cameron to reap when they began going bankrupt and got put on special measures.

Even Richard Branson with his virgin healthcare wants us to stay in the eu.

The eu has been privatizing all across the eu. You can wake up or wait till all the dominoes have fallen in the totalitarian tiptoe.

"Everything is great the farmer is feeding me everyday and putting a roof over my head hes great to me"

An anonymous turkey, 24th December.

[VladimirIlyich]

It's no skin off my nose of you want to bury your head in the lovely soft sand.

So Ive been burying my head in sand since 1973 or was it 75? Yet the tories have been wanting the destruction of the NHS for decades beforehand. Bloody EU interfering in our business since before they even existed!

[ZonkoVille77]

dennis tooth, on 13 Apr 2017 - 2:42 PM, said:

 

 

"Everything is great the farmer is feeding me everyday and putting a roof over my head hes great to me"

An anonymous turkey, 24th December.

Well, I did chuckle.

[dennis tooth]

I'm not arguing if it's what the tories wanted or not.

 

"news

 

opinion

 

sport

 

arts

 

life

Home

Blair welcomes private firms into NHS

View more sharing options

Hélène Mulholland and agencies

Wednesday 15 February 2006 19.09 EST First published on Wednesday 15 February 2006 19.09 EST

 

Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS."

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

[dennis tooth]

So Ive been burying my head in sand since 1973 or was it 75? Yet the tories have been wanting the destruction of the NHS for decades beforehand. Bloody EU interfering in our business since before they even existed!

Bloody tories privatizing public services all across the eu!

[skend04]

C'mon! No one's leave vote is leading to a golden age of state ownership. There'll be a mass sell-off of everything that's left, this is why the Tories are wanking themselves silly.

[dennis tooth]

Not what I said.

That'll be up to people to elect corbyn.

But the eu is no antidote and would hinder and block rather than advance corbyn policies. It's been doing the same as the tories and new labour all across Europe. We've been the canary in the mine for future eu policy and with less union power and more willing to collude government's we have been leading the way but none can deny that's the trend of eu countries and is central to eu doctrine.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

"The OJEU process

 

When we identify new requirements for our NHS members, we are obliged to follow the formal procurement process under EU legislation. The EU Procurement Directives are designed to promote competition and transparency in the award of contracts for the supply of products and services to public sector organisations throughout Europe. In the UK, the Directives are embedded in the Public Contract Regulations 2006."

http://www.lpp.nhs.uk/for-suppliers/

As I've said before, once the UK Government decides to outsource NHS services,the EU insists that they follow EU procurement regulations.

 

The decision to outsource is taken in the UK.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

"The EU has ratified new rules on public sector procurement that will open up the £450bn a year market to smaller contractors and allow governments to outsource services such as healthcare, social care and education more quickly.

 

The UK, Europe’s biggest outsourcing market, has been pushing Brussels to make the changes, which will make it possible to blacklist suppliers that have consistently failed to deliver.

 

The rules will also streamline the procurement process to enable smaller contractors to compete for government contracts across the continent. The EU says public procurement account for about 18 per cent of the bloc’s gross domestic product.

 

 

The new outsourcing rules are to be introduced by all member states within two years. But the UK plans to adopt the changes ahead of schedule as it pushes ahead with plans to outsource more services and at the same time tries to allay fears that taxpayers’ money is being badly spent"

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/346194f6-7dcc-11e3-b409-00144feabdc0

Do you even read the stuff you post?

 

The UK Government are the ones pushing for privatisation. Stop trying to pin it all on the EU.

[Section_31]

There's a lot of truth in what Tooth says. How anyone can be wholly pro EU and see how it completely gutted Greece is beyond me. They're essentially economic slaves forever.

 

The ardent pro EU stance seems to be two pronged, either it's that you're international and love travelling, and that coming out of the EU is the act of illiberal luddites that you don't want to be associated with, or that you fear and despise your own government to the extent that even the most minor employment and legal checks on their heinous shit is something worth clinging on too.

 

I'm firmly in the latter category, but am not particularly arsed about the EU in its current form at all.

 

The Euro is a fucking stupid idea, southern Europe faces austerity without end, and in terms of foreign policy it's got absolutely no balls whatsoever. I can't think of a single benevolent act the EU has accomplished as a Blok.

 

It's shit scared of Russia despite having an economy and combined military that dwarfs it. So what's the fucking point?

 

It needs to be reconstituted. There should be no more than 10 member states that are all pulling the same load economically and with the same political and social outlooks. That's when the EC was strong and relevant, now it's just this big unwieldy economic fuckup.

[VladimirIlyich]

There's a lot of truth in what Tooth says. How anyone can be wholly pro EU and see how it completely gutted Greece is beyond me. They're essentially economic slaves forever.

 

The ardent pro EU stance seems to be two pronged, either it's that you're international and love travelling, and that coming out of the EU is the act of illiberal luddites that you don't want to be associated with, or that you fear and despise your own government to the extent that even the most minor employment and legal checks on their heinous shit is something worth clinging on too.

 

I'm firmly in the latter category, but am not particularly arsed about the EU in its current form at all.

 

The Euro is a fucking stupid idea, southern Europe faces austerity without end, and in terms of foreign policy it's got absolutely no balls whatsoever. I can't think of a single benevolent act the EU has accomplished as a Blok.

 

It's shit scared of Russia despite having an economy and combined military that dwarfs it. So what's the fucking point?

 

It needs to be reconstituted. There should be no more than 10 member states that are all pulling the same load economically and with the same political and social outlooks. That's when the EC was strong and relevant, now it's just this big unwieldy economic fuckup.

I think most of us remainers on here fall into the latter 'Dont trust your own government and prefer some crumbs of comfort from the less neoliberal European governments in the EU.' I also prefer arguments between european governments to take place around a table rather than on a battlefield though. The Russian 'problem' comes from the fact most of europe owes the Yanks financially and doesnt want to upset them so takes its side and does its dirty work for them. We actually need closer ties with our neighbours rather than creating rifts. But rifts create moneymaking opportunities and that's why the tory backers are rubbing their hands in anticipation over it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

There's a lot of truth in what Tooth says. How anyone can be wholly pro EU and see how it completely gutted Greece is beyond me. They're essentially economic slaves forever.

 

The ardent pro EU stance seems to be two pronged, either it's that you're international and love travelling, and that coming out of the EU is the act of illiberal luddites that you don't want to be associated with, or that you fear and despise your own government to the extent that even the most minor employment and legal checks on their heinous shit is something worth clinging on too.

 

I'm firmly in the latter category, but am not particularly arsed about the EU in its current form at all.

 

The Euro is a fucking stupid idea, southern Europe faces austerity without end, and in terms of foreign policy it's got absolutely no balls whatsoever. I can't think of a single benevolent act the EU has accomplished as a Blok.

 

It's shit scared of Russia despite having an economy and combined military that dwarfs it. So what's the fucking point?

 

It needs to be reconstituted. There should be no more than 10 member states that are all pulling the same load economically and with the same political and social outlooks. That's when the EC was strong and relevant, now it's just this big unwieldy economic fuckup.

That's where Den's argument falls.

 

I don't know anyone who is "wholly" supportive of the EU.  Jeremy Corbyn's assessment of 7-7.5 out of 10 is probably a reasonable measure of the support most Remain voters would give it.  Obviously, it needs to reform as it develops.  It always has; hence the long sequence of treaties since it was founded in 1957.  The thing is, these treaties are driven by the governments of the Member States; during the decades of the Keynesian consensus (when we had a generation of politicians who still knew the lessons of World War Two and were acutely aware of what the point of the move to European unity was) that led to a much "kinder, gentler" version of European capitalism than the brutal neoliberalism which Member States (led by the UK) have driven the EU towards in the last few decades.

 

Looking Europe-wide, the EU remains the best bulwark against war between European nations: as long as states are members of the EU, it is practically impossible for them to take arms against each other.  Hence my fear at extremists like njackets fantasising about Brexit leading to the end of the EU itself; that would allow all the various tensions between nations to boil up, with no real mechanism for resolving disputes.  History - especially the recent history of non-EU Europe - shows how quickly things can unravel.

 

Looking just at the UK and the Referendum, the idea of striking a blow against neoliberalism by concentrating more power into the hands of Europe's most hard-core gang of neoliberals has to be judged as, let's say, "unwise".

[mattyq]

There's a lot of truth in what Tooth says. How anyone can be wholly pro EU and see how it completely gutted Greece is beyond me. They're essentially economic slaves forever.

 

The ardent pro EU stance seems to be two pronged, either it's that you're international and love travelling, and that coming out of the EU is the act of illiberal luddites that you don't want to be associated with, or that you fear and despise your own government to the extent that even the most minor employment and legal checks on their heinous shit is something worth clinging on too.

 

I'm firmly in the latter category, but am not particularly arsed about the EU in its current form at all.

 

The Euro is a fucking stupid idea, southern Europe faces austerity without end, and in terms of foreign policy it's got absolutely no balls whatsoever. I can't think of a single benevolent act the EU has accomplished as a Blok.

 

It's shit scared of Russia despite having an economy and combined military that dwarfs it. So what's the fucking point?

 

It needs to be reconstituted. There should be no more than 10 member states that are all pulling the same load economically and with the same political and social outlooks. That's when the EC was strong and relevant, now it's just this big unwieldy economic fuckup.

Russia's economy is about the size of Italy's and getting smaller by the year so I doubt that this is much of a concern.

[VladimirIlyich]

Russia's economy is about the size of Italy's and getting smaller by the year so I doubt that this is much of a concern.

I think its more what Russia represents,a massive army and stockpiles of nuclear weapons allied with a history of strife,both internally and externally. They have always been the target of the fascists who control the White House also,therefore making them more powerful than maybe their GDP alone.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

There's a lot of truth in what Tooth says. How anyone can be wholly pro EU and see how it completely gutted Greece is beyond me. They're essentially economic slaves forever.

 

The ardent pro EU stance seems to be two pronged, either it's that you're international and love travelling, and that coming out of the EU is the act of illiberal luddites that you don't want to be associated with, or that you fear and despise your own government to the extent that even the most minor employment and legal checks on their heinous shit is something worth clinging on too.

 

I'm firmly in the latter category, but am not particularly arsed about the EU in its current form at all.

 

The Euro is a fucking stupid idea, southern Europe faces austerity without end, and in terms of foreign policy it's got absolutely no balls whatsoever. I can't think of a single benevolent act the EU has accomplished as a Blok.

 

It's shit scared of Russia despite having an economy and combined military that dwarfs it. So what's the fucking point?

 

It needs to be reconstituted. There should be no more than 10 member states that are all pulling the same load economically and with the same political and social outlooks. That's when the EC was strong and relevant, now it's just this big unwieldy economic fuckup.

That's a wee bit of sleight of hand there, Secsh.

 

Just about every action of every individual human - let alone any organisation consisting of many, many humans - is going to be motivated by any number of reasons; some altruistic, some self-serving.  Consequently, any action of the EU - however beneficial - cannot be argued to be 100% benevolent.

 

That is, of course, different to arguing whether or not the actions of the EU are beneficial.  There are many things - free movement of individuals; consumer protections; workers' rights; environmental protections; etc. - which are clearly beneficial and could only be achieved by the EU acting as a bloc.

[magicrat]

I think most of us remainers on here fall into the latter 'Dont trust your own government and prefer some crumbs of comfort from the less neoliberal European governments in the EU.' I also prefer arguments between european governments to take place around a table rather than on a battlefield though. The Russian 'problem' comes from the fact most of europe owes the Yanks financially and doesnt want to upset them so takes its side and does its dirty work for them. We actually need closer ties with our neighbours rather than creating rifts. But rifts create moneymaking opportunities and that's why the tory backers are rubbing their hands in anticipation over it.

 

Pretty much where I am coming from. I have had dealings with European regulations for years regarding imports and there is virtually no accountability and the rules are "manipulated" as they see fit, Its a shitfest in many respects. Despite all its failings it far better than having the Tories use Brexit as an excuse to enact the most right wing agenda I have seen in my lifetime,. I hate the rise in racism , the way EU citizens living here are being abused and many facing uncertainty over their status after living here for years. I hate the fact that my kids are being denied opportunities to live and work freely in Europe .Most of all I hate the fact the British people were bounced into this by unscrupulous cunts using lies and fear over immigration,

The Leavers will not get what they want and over time we will re-build bridges with the EU, Shared interests and geography will dictate.

Britain punches well above its weight in the world even as a part of the EU. On the outside we will be the shit on the big boys shoes as Johnson found out this week, No way will we forge a great future on the wider world stage, Tory bullshit 

[Boss]

The EU was a great idea in principle. Take the richest countries in Western Europe and create a single market with tariff free trade. It gave us more leverage on the world stage and made it easier to trade with other superpowers around the world as a collective. Where the EU failed was it's obsession with allowing in weaker and unstable economies to create a fiscal union of all the European states. It ended up enslaving Greece to austerity forever, the unemployment rates amongst young people in Greece and Spain are near 50%, the suicide rates have increased exponentially, the Italian banking crisis could force the Eurozone into economic crisis and the ones propping up the whole thing Germany are on the precipice of a banking crisis themselves. 

 

The freedom of movement act has benefitted countries like Poland massively. Polish workers can earn much higher wages in the richer Western European countries and are granted a much higher quality of life here than in their homeland. Whereas the working classes in countries like the UK have seen their wages undercut, their job opportunities diminished, their workers rights eroded.... they lose out across the board. 

 

Who does this benefit? It benefits the establishment and big business interests. Now for those that say the EU is protecting our employee rights, ask yourself this question what has the EU done to stop zero hour contracts in the UK? Also when Corbyn talks about nationalising the railways and the energy sector ask yourself who's trying to stop that (barre the Tories).....The EU. The EU wants privatisation and competition. Freedom of movement is all about competition in the labour force, it's not some 'kum ba yah' hippy directive to bring about peace and tolerance.

[polymerpunkah]

 

 

The ardent pro EU stance seems to be two pronged, either it's that you're international and love travelling, and that coming out of the EU is the act of illiberal luddites that you don't want to be associated with, or that you fear and despise your own government to the extent that even the most minor employment and legal checks on their heinous shit is something worth clinging on too.

 

There's also the economic element of the discussion--that leaving the EU will cause massive economic disruption.

[magicrat]

 

Who does this benefit? It benefits the establishment and big business interests. Now for those that say the EU is protecting our employee rights, ask yourself this question what has the EU done to stop zero hour contracts in the UK? Also when Corbyn talks about nationalising the railways and the energy sector ask yourself who's trying to stop that (barre the Tories).....The EU. The EU wants privatisation and competition. Freedom of movement is all about competition in the labour force, it's not some 'kum ba yah' hippy directive to bring about peace and tolerance.

 

Even I accepted all this as true, which I don't, The evidence that EU migrants have depressed wages or taken jobs from Brits is flimsy, There is a lot of evidence that they have made a net contribution to the country's finances and in many cases filled vacancies that British workers wouldn't take. All this aside is there one iota of belief in prospect of the Tories improving the lot of the British workforce ?  Left unopposed these cunts will destroy public services , further erode workers rights and benefit none but the rich  . It was utter madness to leave the EU without a clear idea of what that meant to the vast majority of the population. Apart from the economics Brexit has given life -blood to racists and xenophobes which frankly I find disgusting.

[Kloppite]

As I've said before, once the UK Government decides to outsource NHS services,the EU insists that they follow EU procurement regulations.

 

The decision to outsource is taken in the UK.

Wouldn't think the EU are going to do shit all to protect the NHS to be honest with you considering that as far as I am aware the uk is the only member were health care if free at point of care.

 

I was working with an Irish lad and he said in Ireland wages may be higher but goods cost more. He also said your health care is free I said it isn't free we pay for it in national insurance and taxes. He then said at least when you need it its free and your not billed afterwards. I asked about those European health card things he said you still get billed afterwards and said when you go on holiday you still need to insure yourself don't you.

 

I would think that the EU would be a driving force for the privatisation of the NHS not the saviour of it.

 

After all why would anyone nation advocate keeping the NHS the way it is when it is not free at point of care in their own nations.

[Kloppite]

The EU was a great idea in principle. Take the richest countries in Western Europe and create a single market with tariff free trade. It gave us more leverage on the world stage and made it easier to trade with other superpowers around the world as a collective. Where the EU failed was it's obsession with allowing in weaker and unstable economies to create a fiscal union of all the European states. It ended up enslaving Greece to austerity forever, the unemployment rates amongst young people in Greece and Spain are near 50%, the suicide rates have increased exponentially, the Italian banking crisis could force the Eurozone into economic crisis and the ones propping up the whole thing Germany are on the precipice of a banking crisis themselves.

 

The freedom of movement act has benefitted countries like Poland massively. Polish workers can earn much higher wages in the richer Western European countries and are granted a much higher quality of life here than in their homeland. Whereas the working classes in countries like the UK have seen their wages undercut, their job opportunities diminished, their workers rights eroded.... they lose out across the board.

 

Who does this benefit? It benefits the establishment and big business interests. Now for those that say the EU is protecting our employee rights, ask yourself this question what has the EU done to stop zero hour contracts in the UK? Also when Corbyn talks about nationalising the railways and the energy sector ask yourself who's trying to stop that (barre the Tories).....The EU. The EU wants privatisation and competition. Freedom of movement is all about competition in the labour force, it's not some 'kum ba yah' hippy directive to bring about peace and tolerance.

The EU is hypocritical.

 

The EU is supposedly based on socialists principles yet exists for greater leverage as an economic power.

 

One of the principles of socialism is self dependence not depending on other nations to fuel your economy or fill your bread bins.

[Kloppite]

Even I accepted all this as true, which I don't, The evidence that EU migrants have depressed wages or taken jobs from Brits is flimsy, There is a lot of evidence that they have made a net contribution to the country's finances and in many cases filled vacancies that British workers wouldn't take. All this aside is there one iota of belief in prospect of the Tories improving the lot of the British workforce ? Left unopposed these cunts will destroy public services , further erode workers rights and benefit none but the rich . It was utter madness to leave the EU without a clear idea of what that meant to the vast majority of the population. Apart from the economics Brexit has given life -blood to racists and xenophobes which frankly I find disgusting.

The fact that eu migrants have made a net contribution to the countries finances is neither here nor there really it's just a statistical.

 

They very likely have made the country richer but it all depends where that wealth is going or who's pockets it's lining.

 

The rich getting richer while the poor are getting poorer.

 

Aren't we living in austerity Britain yet the countries getting so much wealthier because of the EU.

 

During the last recession the only businesses that were doing well we're the businesses that tailored to the high end such as rolls Royce etc.