Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[njackets 144]

So if coming out the EU is going to give the Tories the licence to rape and pillage the nations poor, we should expect the lot of them to support the leave campaign?

[Champ 5,286]

I'll be voting 'in'. The institution has many faults but much as with the Scottish independence vote I'm not about to vote for an idea rather than a detailed alternative structure. 

 

I accept the argument that the more powerful countries will inevitably want to engineer matters in their favour but surely the collective has to be a better position than an isolationist one that speaks to me of those who hark back to Britain's long lost position at the world top table.

And I do believe as a country and as an individual we benefit from membership, not least as a check on de-regulating Tory policy.

 

And while I make that decision on its own merits I know that a 'no' vote will bring about another independence vote for Scotland

[VladimirIlyich 9,764]

So if coming out the EU is going to give the Tories the licence to rape and pillage the nations poor, we should expect the lot of them to support the leave campaign?

They do,but remember the Tories never say what they mean. Quite a few of them are living it up in the EU on expenses and junkets and so forth but the also pretend to hate it to appease their colleagues.

The EU still protects the British worker more than any Tory ever will,even if the EU do it by accident.

[stringvest 14,254]

So if coming out the EU is going to give the Tories the licence to rape and pillage the nations poor, we should expect the lot of them to support the leave campaign?

 

Not those Tories who have personal opportunities that would be better realised within the EU.  There are plenty of them riding high on the gravy train, and plenty of them who have shares in organisations that will benefit from remaining in the EU. 

[njackets 144]

Another global financial heavyweight with nice intentions (with Tony Blair on there payroll) chips in....

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1626855/jp-morgan-hands-cash-to-pro-eu-campaign

[mattyq 2,215]

Leaving would be daft, really daft

But there you go...there are enough fucking idiots that it might happen

[AngryOfTuebrook 24,991]

There is one simple reason we need to be in it and its because the EU(whether purposely or by a lucky coincidence) provides more basic rights,in the workplace and out,than our own government does or ever wants to.

This alone is worth staying in it for.

If we think we have it bad now wait until those cunts in Parliament can strip away every last bit of protection they can.

There are plenty of twats in the EU but they cannot match the huge twats we have in power over here.

Agreed.

 

It all depends on the reforms that Hamface manages to get. I've not heard much detail of what he is trying to achieve (other than the legal right to starve migrants looking for work) but I'll take any bet that he's after transferring yet more power from the people to corporate interests. He's throwing out the baby and keeping the bathwater.

 

And then he wants us to vote for one of two deeply unpleasant options.

[Section_31 25,684]

I'm torn. Being from Liverpool you can't help but see what the EU has done for the city but TTIP and my dislike of Merkel are swaying me towards out.

Yeah, it's a tough one, the way the EU fucked Greece was an eye opener about what it's become.

[AngryOfTuebrook 24,991]

Staying in is the least worst option,

I think that's more or less my position at the moment, but I intend to look into both arguments a lot more deeply before the vote.

[AngryOfTuebrook 24,991]

Is there any topic you won't try to shoehorn capitalism into?

 

I am talking about the freedoms we have because of the EU.

In fairness, it doesn't take much shoehorning.  As I'm sure you know, the free movement of people is only one of the Four Freedoms - the others being free movement of goods, capital and services.

 

The EU's overriding objective is still what it was at the start - to keep Europe safe for Capitalism.  Obviously, Capitalism comes in different flavours; the currently dominant neoliberal version is incompatible with human freedom, so... yeah, expressing concern is central to any discussion of the EU.

[AngryOfTuebrook 24,991]

This is the shittest argument for staying in the EU i've ever heard! To suggest we'd be in the middle of WW3 now if it wasn't for the EU is ridiculous.

 

The only flash point in Europe for decades and decades is in the Balkans (Not in the EU (Croatia aside) not counting Ukraine either. Its the UN and NATO not the EU that had anything to do with sorting out the mess in Bosnia and Kosovo as I remeber it anyway.

 

So we pull out of Europe this year and all of a sudden century's old grudges between us France, Germany, Spain etc kick things off again!

You don't suppose NATO may have played any part in the Ukrainian shitstorm?

 

I'm also not sure that citing internecine war in non-member states strengthens your argument against the EU's role in preserving peace between Member States.  The fact remains that whatever tensions have arisen among Member States, they have not turned shooty, unlike the non-Member states around them and in contrast to Europe's history in the half-century before the EU.

 

Even in recent years, we have seen economic collapse, a polarisation of left/right politics, large movements of stateless people across the EU and occasional violent atrocities committed by fanatics.  In different times or in different places these would be auguries of war.  But not in the EU.

 

Go figure.

[AngryOfTuebrook 24,991]

Here's something for the Lefties.  A couple of articles (which I haven't read myself yet.)

 

The case for staying in.

http://isj.org.uk/the-eu-referendum-the-case-for-yes/

 

And the case for leaving.

http://isj.org.uk/the-internationalist-case-against-the-european-union/

[Sugar Ape 14,370]

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 Following

Sam Coates TimesVerified account‏@SamCoatesTimes

 

Times/YouGov EU poll 45% Leave 36% Remain 19% Don't know 1,675 voters taken on Feb 3/4

 

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/04/eu-referendum-leave-leads-nine/

[What_What 29]

I personally think we'd be much better off out of the shambles, the scare stories about leaving are a lot less scary than the thought of staying.

 

What's most important for me is our society, culture and way of life and if there is an economic cost to protect those things then so be it.

 

I look at a countries like Sweden and Germany and am horrified at what I see, I think everybody owes it to our future generations to get out of an organisation that make FIFA look a respectable set up.

[Strontium 11,426]

I think if the vote is to leave I may finally break and go on that killing spree. My brain simply would not be able to comprehend that level of stupid without something giving way.

[Neil G 897]

I think if the vote is to leave I may finally break and go on that killing spree. My brain simply would not be able to comprehend that level of stupid without something giving way.

In that case I'd book some yoga sessions now, because Leave is going to win comfortably. Minimum 55 per cent of the vote, probably closer to 60 is my prediction.

[Sugar Ape 14,370]

I'm leaning toward leave winning now as well, though I think it'll be close. Europe imploding over the refugee crisis is going to do the biggest damage, I think. It'll be closely followed by calls for another Scottish referendum.

[Neil G 897]

I'm leaning toward leave winning now as well, though I think it'll be close. Europe imploding over the refugee crisis is going to do the biggest damage, I think. It'll be closely followed by calls for another Scottish referendum.

I really don't think it'll be close at all. It'll be all about immigration, that's the number one issue of concern for voters and has been since last summer when the refugee crisis blew up.

 

Elections are decided by emotion and gut feeling more than reason and evidence, and the narrative of regaining control of our borders is more powerful than anything the Remain side can summon up to push people's buttons. A Scotland style Project Fear campaign from Remain won't work, English people will have a lot more faith in the UK surviving outside the EU than the Scots did in an independent Scotland going it alone. Many of the big unknowns that spooked people in the Scotland debate aren't an issue: Britain already has its own currency and its own armed forces, can already make trade deals with other countries and isn't dependent on the EU for funds the way Scotland is on Westminster.

[Sugar Ape 14,370]

I really don't think it'll be close at all. It'll be all about immigration, that's the number one issue of concern for voters and has been since last summer when the refugee crisis blew up.

 

Elections are decided by emotion and gut feeling more than reason and evidence, and the narrative of regaining control of our borders is more powerful than anything the Remain side can summon up to push people's buttons. A Scotland style Project Fear campaign from Remain won't work, English people will have a lot more faith in the UK surviving outside the EU than the Scots did in an independent Scotland going it alone. Many of the big unknowns that spooked people in the Scotland debate aren't an issue: Britain already has its own currency and its own armed forces, can already make trade deals with other countries and isn't dependent on the EU for funds the way Scotland is on Westminster.

Completely agree. The renegotiation by Cameron won't even be on half the voters radar, much less whether they think it's a good deal or not.

 

Immigration is going to be the primary concern for a lot of people and if there was to be another big terrorist incident here or in Europe between now and the referendum...

 

I think it's a case of when not if for the EU in it's current form to break up anyway whether we leave or not. The refugee issue plus another potential market crash could finish it off.

[Section_31 25,684]

I think Neil is spot on. Hopefully this will bring down Cameron too. 

 

If we can't be a part of Europe I think we should invade it instead. Alert all commands, deploy the fleet. 

[SasaS 3,234]

[Neil G 897]

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I personally think we'd be much better off out of the shambles, the scare stories about leaving are a lot less scary than the thought of staying.

 

What's most important for me is our society, culture and way of life and if there is an economic cost to protect those things then so be it.

 

I look at a countries like Sweden and Germany and am horrified at what I see, I think everybody owes it to our future generations to get out of an organisation that make FIFA look a respectable set up.

 

I'd love to know what you find horrifying about Germany, what have you seen, or do you mean you are just believing everything the media feed you? 

[Section_31 25,684]

We need a North European alliance without the French, call it Asgard, divvie up the oil and let's get this show on the road. 

[thegreatelephant 825]

http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/tony-benn-on-britain-and-eu.html