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Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

277 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      224
    • No
      53


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That would be UK v Council (I have an EU Law exam tomorrow so this shit is stuck in my brain).

 

I have huge doubts about the EU insofar as there's a big democratic deficit with the Commission, which are legally obligated to represent Union interests only, having total monopoly over legislative initiative and thus being in total control over the legislative framework.

 

There's also the issue of EU Law being superior to national law, including constitutions. Plus, there's the threat of the EU being a Trojan horse for TTIP, recently there was a European Citizens Initiative with over a million signatures only for the EU to say it was outside their remit whereas everything else is within their remit where they want to exercise control.

 

Finally, there's the very shady nature of the "bailouts" where control over economic and budgetary policies were completely taken away from sovereign nations and the normal average citizen who had no input into the system or played any part in the crash had to "get a haircut" and "take their medicine".

 

In essence, my natural inclination is to stay but the development of the EU into a political, legal and monetary straight-jacket controlled by an un-elected Commission with no regard for Member States has made me very sceptical about the whole experiment.

 

This is one argument against the EU I could never fully understand, why would Commission act with no regard for EU Member States, what is this EU the commissionaires supposedly care about if not the Member States? It is unelected, but it needs to be approved by an increasingly important EP, which is elected. What is more, the most important issues are decided by the (elected) governments of Member States (or the biggest and most powerful states to be precise) through the Council or consultations. .

 

In countries where government ministers don’t need to be MPs, you get national governments with ministers who are in a sense also themselves unelected, only their political party or party nominating them must win an election or participate in a coalition, so I don’t see that the make-up of Commission is all that different. When Juncker was campaigning for the post, he was strongly opposed by the UK, but other Member States were strongly in favour.  So this unelected aspect strikes me as somewhat overstated.  They do have a massive influence over legislation, but I don’t think they are so autonomous in relation to (elected) national governments. I don't think Juncker runs the EU, Merkel, Hollande and Cameron do, depending on the individual weight (€) of their respective countries.

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This is one argument against the EU I could never fully understand, why would Commission act with no regard for EU Member States, what is this EU the commissionaires supposedly care about if not the Member States? It is unelected, but it needs to be approved by an increasingly important EP, which is elected. What is more, the most important issues are decided by the (elected) governments of Member States (or the biggest and most powerful states to be precise) through the Council or consultations. .

 

In countries where government ministers don’t need to be MPs, you get national governments with ministers who are in a sense also themselves unelected, only their political party or party nominating them must win an election or participate in a coalition, so I don’t see that the make-up of Commission is all that different. When Juncker was campaigning for the post, he was strongly opposed by the UK, but other Member States were strongly in favour.  So this unelected aspect strikes me as somewhat overstated.  They do have a massive influence over legislation, but I don’t think they are so autonomous in relation to (elected) national governments. I don't think Juncker runs the EU, Merkel, Hollande and Cameron do, depending on the individual weight (€) of their respective countries.

 

They are required by Article 245 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to be completely independent of national interests and to represent the EU only. In essence, the Commission is there to serve the supranational body that the EU is gradually developed into, and it's this aspect where I think a lot of people are getting worried. They even tried to bring in a Constitutional Treaty a while back with a lot of pan-European symbolism but that was roundly rejected.

 

While it's the true the Parliament has grown in statuture and can pass censure on the Commission, this is very unlikely to happen in practice and the power of the Commission would remain. The fact is the Commission retains legislative initiative and that is key.

 

It's true that Merkel et al retain a huge amount of power, but that is another thing that negatives people's view of the Union. Voting procedures are already weighted in favour of larger countries and the exercise of power by Merkel, Hollande and the rest of the main players in the European Council does little to dispel people's genuine fears that the EU is nothing but a cabal for larger countries to set the rules in favour of themselves. You need only to look at the Greek bailout furore to see this in practice.

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Indeed. Being Irish, the relationship with the EU is very strange. We have rejected a few of their treaties, including that shitty Lisbon one. When we exercised our democratic right in rejecting it through a referendum, the media machine and mainstream political establishment went into overdrive and we were made to vote again and that time, they got what they wanted.

 

Much of the austerity being imposed upon us has been by the Troika as well and thus external in nature because our government will bend over and take whatever Merkel has to give them. Fortunately,we don't have the Tories here, in fact we don't have any political divides here really, just various political factions with very notional differences most of which are derived from the Civil War that happened after independence scrambling over each other to climb aboard the gravy train.

 

However, with all the problems and concerns I have mentioned, go to any public work in the country and there's a sign saying it was a result of at least some EU investment. Still, Iceland seem to be doing just fine without their "haircuts" and their "medicine" so there may be hope yet.

 

Here's a case summary of that case littletedwest mentioned: http://www.cjel.net/print/3_2-vannuffel/

This video covers that, shocking really god help us if these cunts get more power over us and a stay in result would more or less mean that...

 

https://youtu.be/M6QmH-7fu68

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It's a bit of a headfuck that anyone in Liverpool would vote to come out of the EU.  It's just about the only safety net the city has - not only from the Tories, but from itself. The whole question of membership of the EU is much more important than parochial matters, but it is strange nonetheless.  

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I'd say it's more like voting to be free (to live in other countries, work in other countries, buy from other countries) or unfree.

 

For the first time I am genuinely scared that the mouthbreathers will vote against freedom.

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What freedom is eu giving ?

 

A freedom from war between major superpowers that very few other generations have been allowed?

 

The more fractured Europe becomes the more likely conflict is going to be. The more tied to each other we are the less likely it is. You can argue about the degree to which those ties should be made but it's a very important aspect.

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A freedom from war between major superpowers that very few other generations have been allowed?

 

The more fractured Europe becomes the more likely conflict is going to be. The more tied to each other we are the less likely it is. You can argue about the degree to which those ties should be made but it's a very important aspect.

As if there is any chance we're going to war in this day and age with anyone in Europe! If anything the EU have caused war, it shit stirred enough in the Ukraine to kick off all that shit with Russia!

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At the current moment I'd be voting out. I just think it's become a mess and the whole TTip makes me very uncomfortable. The EU does a lot of good but sometimes one size doesn't fit all. Too much bureaucracy.

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As if there is any chance we're going to war in this day and age with anyone in Europe! If anything the EU have caused war, it shit stirred enough in the Ukraine to kick off all that shit with Russia!

 

Europe was quite fighty for centuries until the advent of the EU.  To consider this as irrelevant might be a bit complacent. 

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I'm torn. Being from Liverpool you can't help but see what the EU has done for the city but TTIP and my dislike of Merkel are swaying me towards out.

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Europe was quite fighty for centuries until the advent of the EU. To consider this as irrelevant might be a bit complacent.

This is the shittest argument for staying in the EU i've ever heard! To suggest we'd be in the middle of WW3 now if it wasn't for the EU is ridiculous.

 

The only flash point in Europe for decades and decades is in the Balkans (Not in the EU (Croatia aside) not counting Ukraine either. Its the UN and NATO not the EU that had anything to do with sorting out the mess in Bosnia and Kosovo as I remeber it anyway.

 

So we pull out of Europe this year and all of a sudden century's old grudges between us France, Germany, Spain etc kick things off again!

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This is the shittest argument for staying in the EU i've ever heard! To suggest we'd be in the middle of WW3 now if it wasn't for the EU is ridiculous.

 

The only flash point in Europe for decades and decades is in the Balkans (Not in the EU (Croatia aside) not counting Ukraine either. Its the UN and NATO not the EU that had anything to do with sorting out the mess in Bosnia and Kosovo as I remeber it anyway.

 

So we pull out of Europe this year and all of a sudden century's old grudges between us France, Germany, Spain etc kick things off again!

 

There are several compelling reasons for staying in the EU, the maintenance of the peace is at the moment just a sideshow, but don't allow your outlook to be crippled by a lack of imagination.  What should concern you more in the short term is the reduced influence the UK would have in Europe.  Even the US, who can't really be arsed with Europe anyway these days as they are busy opening their legs to China, would see the UK as completely irrelevant in geopolitical terms.  They would be having their meetings with Germany and France (and Spain and Italy and whoever else could influence the direction of the EU, and by implication Europe.  We can negotiate trade deals to our major trading partners on unfavourable terms.  Yippee-do.

 

We'll lose jobs, workers rights, fiscal stability, etc.  What we will gain is a degree of autonomy to try to eke a living on the scraps left once the Tories have finally stripped the carcass and left the eyeballs, nipples and bum hole for the 99% of the UK population to fight over.  

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Goldman Sachs have donated a six figure sum into the keep Britain in campaign...Now let that sink in...I'm sure they've got the best interests of the people of Great Britain when they were writting out that cheque!

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There are several compelling reasons for staying in the EU, the maintenance of the peace is at the moment just a sideshow, but don't allow your outlook to be crippled by a lack of imagination. What should concern you more in the short term is the reduced influence the UK would have in Europe. Even the US, who can't really be arsed with Europe anyway these days as they are busy opening their legs to China, would see the UK as completely irrelevant in geopolitical terms. They would be having their meetings with Germany and France (and Spain and Italy and whoever else could influence the direction of the EU, and by implication Europe. We can negotiate trade deals to our major trading partners on unfavourable terms. Yippee-do.

 

We'll lose jobs, workers rights, fiscal stability, etc. What we will gain is a degree of autonomy to try to eke a living on the scraps left once the Tories have finally stripped the carcass and left the eyeballs, nipples and bum hole for the 99% of the UK population to fight over.

Nonsense!

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I gained a additional 8 days a year holiday out the EU,thats good enough for me. More workers rights and sone sort of barrier against the tories having full power im in

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