Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[AngryOfTuebrook]

42 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

All in how the pie is sliced and shared. The country's GDP could be through the roof but its irrelevant if the poor and low paid are neglected, as they were. Brexit has given employers no choice but to give more to workers in certain low paid sectors such as agriculture/haulage or else the product remains unpicked and/or unmoved, its wealth re distribution through market forces.

We've been through this, loads of times, a year ago.

 

1. It is all about how the pie is divided: it was UK Government economic policy, not the right of free movement, that kept wages low in some sectors. Brexit reduces GDP, so there is less pie to go round and no chance of it being shared more fairly.

 

2.  Labour shortages are as much (or more) a product of Covid as they are a product of Brexit. The real results of Brexit won't be seen until after the pandemic.

 

3. The pay increases in specific sectors were a temporary reaction to the circumstances. They are unsustainable and will not be "the new normal". (You even posted an interview with a beneficiary of the payrises - a carpenter, if I remember correctly - admitting as much.) There is no reason at all - other than a blind faith in "Boris" - to believe that any Brexit benefits for working people will endure.

 

4.  Expect three longer-term responses to last year's pay increases: more immigration from poorer countries (whose workers are more easily exploitable - being poorer and having fewer rights than EU workers); businesses will go bust, meaning there are fewer jobs all round; and the Government will further weaken workers' rights (and attack the benefits system) to force people into those jobs. There's evidence of these things happening already.

 

5. Brexit has aggravated shortages of goods, caused by Covid and Russia's invasion of Ukraine. These shortages (which you used to celebrate) are causing high levels of inflation, which is eating into everyone's pay.  Any lorry driver or barista who got a 10% rise last year has seen most of it wiped out already.

 

6. Brexit is the main reason the Johnson cabal have absolute, uncontrolled power. All the bad shit they're doing, they can only do because Brexit put them where they are. This is not good for working people.

[Gnasher]

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

We've been through this, loads of times, a year ago.

 

1. It is all about how the pie is divided: it was UK Government economic policy, not the right of free movement, that kept wages low in some sectors. Brexit reduces GDP, so there is less pie to go round and no chance of it being shared more fairly.

 

It is how the pie is divided, that's what I said. The size of the pie is irrelevant if the lowest paid get little to nowt and have to rely on foodbanks. That's why wage rises due to worker shortages are a godsend to thousands upon thousands of low paid workers.

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

2.  Labour shortages are as much (or more) a product of Covid as they are a product of Brexit. The real results of Brexit won't be seen until after the pandemic.

Covid did indeed contribute to staff shortages but it's now clear as the shortages still persist Brexit was a hugh factor.

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

3. The pay increases in specific sectors were a temporary reaction to the circumstances. They are unsustainable and will not be "the new normal". (You even posted an interview with a beneficiary of the payrises - a carpenter, if I remember correctly - admitting as much.) There is no reason at all - other than a blind faith in "Boris" - to believe that any Brexit benefits for working people will endure.

 

You keep repeating rises are 'temporary' with little evidence to back the claim up, one report suggests staff shortages show no signs of easing and could last for seven plus years. Plus what if they are/were temporary? Bankers bonuses were temporary did they dismiss them? What the fuvk is about low paid workers receiving well deserved wage rises that brings out this negativity? 

 

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

4.  Expect three longer-term responses to last year's pay increases: more immigration from poorer countries (whose workers are more easily exploitable - being poorer and having fewer rights than EU workers); businesses will go bust, meaning there are fewer jobs all round; and the Government will further weaken workers' rights (and attack the benefits system) to force people into those jobs. There's evidence of these things happening already.

 

I agree with this paragraph, dangerous times ahead but that's our governments doing not Brexit, Johnson is looking for cheap labour now in India. Let them own it.

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

5. Brexit has aggravated shortages of goods, caused by Covid and Russia's invasion of Ukraine. These shortages (which you used to celebrate) are causing high levels of inflation, which is eating into everyone's pay.  Any lorry driver or barista who got a 10% rise last year has seen most of it wiped out already.

 

I do not celebrate goods shortages or high inflation (which is woldwide).

Again you are blaming brexit and so giving government a free pass on their incompetence.

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

6. Brexit is the main reason the Johnson cabal have absolute, uncontrolled power. All the bad shit they're doing, they can only do because Brexit put them where they are. This is not good for working people.

 

Then it's up to us and the opposition to put forward an alternative.

 

I agree we've gone over all this before.

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/21/boris-johnson-hints-further-delay-post-brexit-eu-import-checks

 

Brexit is so great that we still aren't implementing rules and checks we're supposed to because we'd be short of food. 

[clockspeed]

21 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

It is how the pie is divided, that's what I said. The size of the pie is irrelevant if the lowest paid get little to nowt and have to rely on foodbanks. That's why wage rises due to worker shortages are a godsend to thousands upon thousands of low paid workers.

Covid did indeed contribute to staff shortages but it's now clear as the shortages still persist Brexit was a hugh factor.

 

You keep repeating rises are 'temporary' with little evidence to back the claim up, one report suggests staff shortages show no signs of easing and could last for seven plus years. Plus what if they are/were temporary? Bankers bonuses were temporary did they dismiss them? What the fuvk is about low paid workers receiving well deserved wage rises that brings out this negativity? 

 

 

I agree with this paragraph, dangerous times ahead but that's our governments doing not Brexit, Johnson is looking for cheap labour now in India. Let them own it.

 

I do not celebrate goods shortages or high inflation (which is woldwide).

Again you are blaming brexit and so giving government a free pass on their incompetence.

 

Then it's up to us and the opposition to put forward an alternative.

 

I agree we've gone over all this before.

I can comment on wage  rate increases. In a workforce of 120 I lost 10 employees to suddenly higher competition rates. It caused my company a lot of disruption but faced with escalating supply chain increases I couldn't match the rates on offer . Lo and behold all 10 have been let go before the end of their probationary periods .  Part of me says tough on them but there is supposedly loads of jobs out there they will be OK. Well there isn't.  It is all spin . Yeah IT,finance  and big Pharma all booming and paying good salaries . Not everyone has the qualifications to compete in those markets. 

[Gnasher]

2 hours ago, clockspeed said:

I can comment on wage  rate increases. In a workforce of 120 I lost 10 employees to suddenly higher competition rates. It caused my company a lot of disruption but faced with escalating supply chain increases I couldn't match the rates on offer . Lo and behold all 10 have been let go before the end of their probationary periods .  Part of me says tough on them but there is supposedly loads of jobs out there they will be OK. Well there isn't.  It is all spin . Yeah IT,finance  and big Pharma all booming and paying good salaries . Not everyone has the qualifications to compete in those markets. 

 

Sorry to hear that, as you say hopefully the 10 who's 'probationary period' ended go on and find concrete employment.

 

I'm not sure what field your in and as you say some are struggling more than others, especially through material shortages etc, however unemployment in general is indeed low, its not spin, the official statistics tell us so, I realise the figures can be fiddled to a certain degree but we are in a period of low unemployment especially compared to years gone by and compared to our European neighbours.

 

As for wage rises pushing up employment costs the alternative is a stack em high pay em low workforce and wage stagnation. 

 

The article states the official statistics, I know its not a one size fits all but don't think they can scam these figures that much..

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/17/uk-unemployment-falls-record-rise-job-vacancies-covid-lockdown-workers

 

[clockspeed]

We are working in labour intensive manufacturing. Just sharing what I am seeing on the ground. Additionally 6 months ago when I was looking to replace leavers I was getting practically zero applications. We are now back getting unsollicted CVs again .  I am pleasantly surprised at the standard of candidates. But dig deeper and I am wondering whats happening out there. Take a look at the retail figures today all the wage rises have been wiped out by inflation , covid and war confidence at a low ebb.   The Tory running of the economy singularly needs people to spend their earnings . Ain't happening. 

[Gnasher]

30 minutes ago, clockspeed said:

We are working in labour intensive manufacturing. Just sharing what I am seeing on the ground. Additionally 6 months ago when I was looking to replace leavers I was getting practically zero applications. We are now back getting unsollicted CVs again .  I am pleasantly surprised at the standard of candidates. But dig deeper and I am wondering whats happening out there. Take a look at the retail figures today all the wage rises have been wiped out by inflation , covid and war confidence at a low ebb.   The Tory running of the economy singularly needs people to spend their earnings . Ain't happening. 

 

Fair enough. You're definitely right about high inflation wiping out wage increases, inflation is rising throughout the west. Hope things turn out OK for you.

[Moo]

12 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

Fair enough. You're definitely right about high inflation wiping out wage increases, inflation is rising throughout the west. Hope things turn out OK for you.

Was it you who once said inflation is good?

 

As for increased job security, I doubt many people out there feel their job is secure when the economy is tanking/inflation soaring. Ask anyone in supply chain roles if they think their job is secure.

[Gnasher]

2 hours ago, Moo said:

Was it you who once said inflation is good?

 

I did indeed, most economists agree a certain level.of inflation shows a robust economy, however the world wide inflation we are seeing now is spiralling out of control, rising this high this fast will hit ordinary consumers and damage the economy.

Quote

As for increased job security, I doubt many people out there feel their job is secure when the economy is tanking/inflation soaring. Ask anyone in supply chain roles if they think their job is secure.

 

You are right the economy is about to tank and it will unfortunately have a diverse effect on jobs and job security but you've fallen into the Cummings/Cain/tory trap of blaming government incompetence on Brexit, which is nice for the Conservative party. To lump high inflation in with Brexit is plainly ludicrous, the inflation rates in USA and throughout Europe are all rising sharply for obvious reasons.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/22/tesco-to-ration-cooking-oil-purchases-as-war-in-ukraine-hits-food-prices

 

[Gnasher]

4 hours ago, Moo said:

Was it you who once said inflation is good?

 

As for increased job security, I doubt many people out there feel their job is secure when the economy is tanking/inflation soaring. Ask anyone in supply chain roles if they think their job is secure.

Sorry posted wrong link in my answer above, here you go, basically we're all fucked,

 

 

https://blogs.imf.org/2022/04/19/war-dims-global-economic-outlook-as-inflation-accelerates/#post/0

[Moo]

6 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

I did indeed, most economists agree a certain level.of inflation shows a robust economy, however the world wide inflation we are seeing now is spiralling out of control, rising this high this fast will hit ordinary consumers and damage the economy.

 

You are right the economy is about to tank and it will unfortunately have a diverse effect on jobs and job security but you've fallen into the Cummings/Cain/tory trap of blaming government incompetence on Brexit, which is nice for the Conservative party. To lump high inflation in with Brexit is plainly ludicrous, the inflation rates in USA and throughout Europe are all rising sharply for obvious reasons.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/22/tesco-to-ration-cooking-oil-purchases-as-war-in-ukraine-hits-food-prices

 

So why are you still banging on about job security being a thing in the UK?  Just a day or two earlier in this thread you were continuing to imply it was a Brexit benefit, have you had an epiphany?

 

And no if anyone has fallen into a trap it's you and all the other cult followers, somehow thinking Brexit would ever be "delivered" by a competent government.  You still can't seem to accept that Brexit would always be at the hands of the incompetent, the self-interested and the malevolent. 

A clear case of congnitive dissonance.

[Gnasher]

2 hours ago, Moo said:

So why are you still banging on about job security being a thing in the UK?  Just a day or two earlier in this thread you were continuing to imply it was a Brexit benefit, have you had an epiphany?

No, we were witnessing low unemployment and unfilled vacancies, both contribute to job security, both contributed to wage rises in certain (mainly low paid) sectors. The war has obviously thrown a spanner in works, the high inflation you tried to suggest was because of brexit was pretty much worldwide.

 

 https://blogs.imf.org/2022/04/19/war-dims-global-economic-outlook-as-inflation-accelerates/#post/0

Quote

And no if anyone has fallen into a trap it's you and all the other cult followers, somehow thinking Brexit would ever be "delivered" by a competent government.  You still can't seem to accept that Brexit would always be at the hands of the incompetent, the self-interested and the malevolent. 

A clear case of congnitive dissonance.

 

The government is the choice of the electorate, As for 'cult' followers, thats a large cult.

[skend04]

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/roger-daltrey-brexit-eu-tour-b2060789.html

 

Another thick leave voter. Planning consent falls under the Town and Country Planning Act. Passed by the UK government. 

[Rico1304]

 

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/27/post-brexit-trade-barriers-increase-price-of-food-imported-from-eu-report

 

Food price inflation exacerbated by Brexit. Another benefit as inflation is a good thing. Apparently.

[Pete]

49 minutes ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/27/post-brexit-trade-barriers-increase-price-of-food-imported-from-eu-report

 

Food price inflation exacerbated by Brexit. Another benefit as inflation is a good thing. Apparently.

We knew what we were voting for....


 

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

We knew what we were voting for....


 

A 6 - 9% percent increase over two years on certain products such as eu scorched foods such as pork, jam and tomatoes. 

[Chairman Meow]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

A 6 - 9% percent increase over two years on certain products such as eu scorched foods such as pork, jam and tomatoes. 

Leave Lifey's breakfast out of this. 

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/28/uk-sea-ports-consider-legal-action-delay-brexit-controls-jacob-rees-mogg

 

If the Brexiteer's checks are implemented we'll run out of food. So Brexiteers dare not implement the necessary Brexit checks. When are the Tories going to admit that Brexit has failed?

 

[Mudface]

2 hours ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/28/uk-sea-ports-consider-legal-action-delay-brexit-controls-jacob-rees-mogg

 

If the Brexiteer's checks are implemented we'll run out of food. So Brexiteers dare not implement the necessary Brexit checks. When are the Tories going to admit that Brexit has failed?

 

Didn't a carpenter get a pay rise though?

[skend04]

56 minutes ago, Mudface said:

Didn't a carpenter get a pay rise though?

Not sure but some bird in a coffee shop in Bristol did.

[Gnasher]

2 hours ago, Mudface said:

Didn't a carpenter get a pay rise though?

Yes they did indeed, and haulage workers, and fruit and veg pickers, and meat factory workers, and hospitality workers. People on the lower end of the pay scale getting wage rises irk you? 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-sees-fastest-wage-rises-sectors-most-reliant-eu-workers-indeed-2022-02-25/

 

Wage rises for the low paid brings all my tories to the yard;

https://www.ft.com/content/c555d5af-4cdb-4f83-b12f-6857b7a8ba04

 

As for the government experiencing logistical problems at some of its ports, oh well.

[cloggypop]

This sounds fucking boss to be fair but I'm not sure why we had to leave the EU to have it. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/may/09/dreamachine-review-as-close-to-state-funded-psychedelic-drugs-as-you-can-get

 

 

[Anubis]

No Machine Elves, so totally unauthentic.

[AngryOfTuebrook]