Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Captain Willard]

Had a long chat at the football with a self employed builder friend this morning. He is selling his second car, cancelling his holiday etc as he says a terrible storm is about to hit the building industry. Prices of materials are going up all over Europe, qualified tradesmen are thin on the ground in the UK and as a result the price of domestic building work has shot up by at least 30%. He says people are cancelling their extensions, loft conversions etc as they can’t afford the inflated costs and his order book is going to run out in a few months. He won’t take on new jobs as even if the buyer agrees the inflated price he can’t guarantee to get the materials or the tradesmen in 3 months time. Very worrying conversation. 

[Gnasher]

25 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

Had a long chat at the football with a self employed builder friend this morning. He is selling his second car, cancelling his holiday etc as he says a terrible storm is about to hit the building industry. Prices of materials are going up all over Europe, qualified tradesmen are thin on the ground in the UK and as a result the price of domestic building work has shot up by at least 30%. He says people are cancelling their extensions, loft conversions etc as they can’t afford the inflated costs and his order book is going to run out in a few months. He won’t take on new jobs as even if the buyer agrees the inflated price he can’t guarantee to get the materials or the tradesmen in 3 months time. Very worrying conversation. 

Yeah it's definitely worrying for smaller builders especially. The material shortages are crippling productivity and putting extra time and costs on jobs, plus wage rates have risen. A lot of new buildings down south have windows with no glass, massive backlog apparently. I guess the affects vary throughout different parts of the country although I'd by surprised if everyone hasn't felt some sort of inconvenience. Our idiotic government hasn't helped, a little forward thinking could have averted a lot of these issues, although some shortages are being felt right  throughout Europe and even in the States. Hope it irons itself out soon.

 

The different rates/affects in different parts of the UK are strange, for example hospitality workers/construction have seen large rises in wages since Brexit in Manchester and down South whilst Merseyside and the Midlands have apparently only experienced little or small rises, not sure why that is.

[skend04]

Just read that Frost was born in Derby. FFS, we could have done with a better advert for the city rather than this twat. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Decent summary of why it's wrong to scapegoat immigrants - or to expect anything to really improve by kicking them out. Give workers and their unions more power and invest in training to improve productivity: that's how you raise wages sustainably and in all sectors.

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/10/blame-the-erosion-of-union-power-not-migrants-for-poor-wages?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Rico1304]

I was out with Lord Frosts brother in law yesterday.  Let’s just say he doesn’t take criticism of him very well.   

[Arniepie]

If a job is advertised as a certain rate of pay,shouldn't there be a law in place, to ensure this is met, no matter who takes the job?

Obviously if they did that, and it wasnt met,the blame would be laid at the employer, and not the 'cheap foreign labour'

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

If a job is advertised as a certain rate of pay,shouldn't there be a law in place, to ensure this is met, no matter who takes the job?

Obviously if they did that, and it wasnt met,the blame would be laid at the employer, and not the 'cheap foreign labour'

The argument is that "cheap foreign labour" allows employers to advertise at a lower rate of pay.

 

The response is either to do what the Labour movement traditionally does (organise to demand better pay and conditions for all workers) or to do what Tories want (divide the workers, kick out the foreigners and let "market forces" dictate rates of pay).

[Arniepie]

4 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The argument is that "cheap foreign labour" allows employers to advertise at a lower rate of pay.

 

The response is either to do what the Labour movement traditionally does (organise to demand better pay and conditions for all workers) or to do what Tories want (divide the workers, kick out the foreigners and let "market forces" dictate rates of pay).

But if legislation was in place which meant the rate of pay had to be uniform, no matter where advertised,this wouldn't even matter?

But obviously again you wouldmt have workers arguing against other whilst the gmnt take full advantage.

[Gnasher]

12 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The argument is that "cheap foreign labour" allows employers to advertise at a lower rate of pay.

 

The response is either to do what the Labour movement traditionally does (organise to demand better pay and conditions for all workers) or to do what Tories want (divide the workers, kick out the foreigners and let "market forces" dictate rates of pay).

But the reality is that employers do not "have to advertise" anything. The roads to the rich man's riches are oh so conveniently laid on a plate.

 

Id have thought the guardian would've realised they'd been rumbled when their assignation of Jeremy Corbyn got rumbled and their promotion of Change UK got short shrift by the british people, but they still try to paint day as night. It's getting like the moon landings this, it's all just shadows, no wage rises for truck drivers or fruit pickers, Nasa must have fooled us, its not really happening, it can't be, these pay rises for lorry drivers; hospitality; agricultural can't really be real, look at the shadows.

 

Like the anti vax nut jobs this shit is getting fucking silly and it's harmful to the prospects of removing this government. I personally know a fairly large building company that have given wage rises and are recruiting more apprenticeship workers as a result of Brexit. 

 

If we don't face facts and get real then the tories will once again walk the next election. Do people think the girl in a coffee shop in Bristol who's just been given her first pay rise for four years should give a fuck about a hospitality worker from Estonia? Who's probably working elsewhere in the EU anyway.

 

 

To deny the reality of certain sections of the workforce (mainly low paid working class sections like haulage/construction/hospitality/haulage etc) receiving pay rises is just going to play into tory hands and give them another landslide.

 

Denial is going to gift these cunts another election, its why they're ahead in the polls,

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-set-most-widespread-pay-rises-over-decade-cbi-2021-09-19/

[AngryOfTuebrook]

24 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

To deny the reality of certain sections of the workforce (mainly low paid working class sections like haulage/construction/hospitality/haulage etc) receiving pay rises is just going to play into tory hands and give them another landslide.

 

Denial is going to gift these cunts another election, its why they're ahead in the polls,

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-set-most-widespread-pay-rises-over-decade-cbi-2021-09-19/

Right now, the Brexiteer Tories are trying to claim credit for the current sector-specific, temporary payrises and they're exaggerating them, to portray them as some sort of great triumph for the British working class.

 

I'd rather use facts to point out that the lying cunts are lying, than join in with their great deception. But that's just me. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

31 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Do people think the girl in a coffee shop in Bristol who's just been given her first pay rise for four years should give a fuck about a hospitality worker from Estonia? Who's probably working elsewhere in the EU anyway.

That's the spirit that saw thousands of trade unionists rally round Enoch Powell in 1968.

 

Personally, I prefer solidarity and unity to the divisive bullshit that Tories thrive on. (I also think you underestimate that Bristol coffee-shop worker. Don't assume that just because someone is in a low-paid job they're a self-obsessed, gullible xenophobe.)

[Gnasher]

32 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

That's the spirit that saw thousands of trade unionists rally round Enoch Powell in 1968.

 

Personally, I prefer solidarity and unity to the divisive bullshit that Tories thrive on. (I also think you underestimate that Bristol coffee-shop worker. Don't assume that just because someone is in a low-paid job they're a self-obsessed, gullible xenophobe.)

I watched the interview with the Bristol coffee shop girl, good kid, cared about the environment, lived in a flat I'm Brislington (massive working class area of Bristol) with her nan and child, felt neglected by the Labour Party. She didn't strike me as the xenophobic type, far from it, she didn't strike me as a bigot, or a racist, she just came across as just another working British kid trying to guide herself through an unfairly weighted system that pompous pricks in the Labour Party think it's OK to dismiss and leave behind.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I watched the interview with the Bristol coffee shop girl, good kid, cared about the environment, lived in a flat I'm Brislington (massive working class area of Bristol) with her nan and child, felt neglected by the Labour Party. She didn't strike me as the xenophobic type, far from it, she didn't strike me as a bigot, or a racist, she just came across as just another working British kid trying to guide herself through an unfairly weighted system that pompous pricks in the Labour Party think it's OK to dismiss and leave behind.

Did she say "I don't give a fuck about a hospitality worker being sent back to Estonia"? If so, she's a cunt; if not, you're misrepresenting her.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It's fair to say that Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Nye Bevan and Bob Crow would never stand for the kind of politics that turns working people against each other, on grounds of nationality or any other grounds.

[Gnasher]

12 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It's fair to say that Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Nye Bevan and Bob Crow would never stand for the kind of politics that turns working people against each other, on grounds of nationality or any other grounds.

It's not 'turning working people against each other" Angry, stop being ridiculous. Almost all eu workers find other jobs, it's no big deal and contrary to false reports their has been very little animosity between British and European workers, its mainly bullshit, the picture painted of a nation of racist bigots is a false narrative constructed by our media and politicians to suit their own ends. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

It's not 'turning working people against each other" Angry, stop being ridiculous. Almost all eu workers find other jobs, it's no big deal and contrary to false reports their has been very little animosity between British and European workers, its mainly bullshit, the picture painted of a nation of racist bigots is a false narrative constructed by our media and politicians to suit their own ends. 

Right, saying "it's good that all those workers can't work here any more" isn't turning workers against each other.

 

Aren't you forever banging on about how terrible unemployment - especially youth unemployment - in the EU is? How does that square with almost all EU workers finding jobs?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Incidentally, did you read the link I posted above?

[Gnasher]

7 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Incidentally, did you read the link I posted above?

I did, I thought it was an outdated load of guardian bollocks which ignores the current realities, ive posted the ONS report numerous times which shows how cheap labour helps the middle classes but hurts the working class; the low paid and the immigrants living in the UK themselves. This Change UK nonsense spouted by certain Guardian journalists and righr wing Labour figures will put the Labour Party under.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

I did, I thought it was an outdated load of guardian bollocks which ignores the current realities, ive posted the ONS report numerous times which shows how cheap labour helps the middle classes but hurts the working class; the low paid and the immigrants living in the UK themselves. This Change UK nonsense spouted by certain Guardian journalists and righr wing Labour figures will put the Labour Party under.

Right. Does that mean you didn't read it or you never bothered to try to understand it?

[Vincent Vega]

The government’s current immigration policy succinctly summarised in today’s FT:

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

, ive posted the ONS report numerous times which shows how cheap labour helps the middle classes but hurts the working class; the low paid and the immigrants living in the UK themselves.

Incidentally, the ONS data (which is mentioned in that Guardian piece) doesn't say that. It says that immigration has either no impact or a slightly positive impact for most people, but has a slightly negative impact for the lowest-paid workers (i e. not all working class people).

 

[Stickman]

Ever feel like you've been cheated ?

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Right. Does that mean you didn't read it or you never bothered to try to understand it?

I told you Ive read it, didn't you read my reply. Its an article thats ten years out of date and has been dispoved by recent events. 

 

The country has moved on Angry, this right wing/Change UK type nonsense Spanner trys to spin on everyone is dead in the water. An example, you mentioned the eco youngster who had a pay rise in Bristol, Bristol is turning its back on the Labour Party (which must've taken some doing) the kids are looking forward and going green, they're rejecting the old slave/cheap labour trade, they don't want to see plane loads of Romanians flown into Britain on planes to keep down the price of asparagus, if Spanner drove around the harbour in his high powered wank machine with stickers of old people trader Ursula Von der Leyen on the bonnet the kids would probably throw his car into the harbour next old Eddie Coulston, with Spanner still in it. Incidentally their is now a green traffic cone on the pedestal where Ursulas old family mate Coulston once stood. In seriousness the cheap/slave labour game is over. Continuing on the theme of Bristol, i had to pop over there last month and  near to the Tony Benn building is a hugh building site with a hugh banner drapped across the entrance saying 'we've been voted one of the Sunday Times top 100 firms to work for, so youth of Bristol what are you waiting for?" I asked one of the bosses what the ad was about (because I've never known them to advertise like that before) and the answer was 'needs must, simply got to be done, labour shortages etc' this is the reality at street level Angry, the EU suppressed wages, which in part is what it was devised to do.

 

[Gnasher]

15 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Incidentally, the ONS data (which is mentioned in that Guardian piece) doesn't say that. It says that immigration has either no impact or a slightly positive impact for most people, but has a slightly negative impact for the lowest-paid workers (i e. not all working class people).

 

"Negative impact on lower paid workers" and Negative impact on settled immigrants themselves, I'd  take a wild guess most are working class, don't these people count in Labour Party circles? Who's side are labour actually on? Who are they for? The fruit picker on shit pay or the landowners? The plumber from Preston or the plumber from Poland? The coffee shop girl whos wage rise affords her a cheap car in Bristol? The worker on minimum wage in a poultry factory?

 

Who are the modern day Labour Party batting for? Because if Labour are not willing to go out and bat for the kids mentioned then why should Labour expect people go out on election day and vote for them? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I told you Ive read it, didn't you read my reply. Its an article thats ten years out of date and has been dispoved by recent events. 

That makes no sense. It's clearly an article about what is happening here and now. It's arguing for more power for workers (through their unions) and more investment in sustainable, secure jobs. In what world are those right-wing arguments?