Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Rico1304]

19 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No.

 

It.

 

Fucking.

 

Isn't.

 

 

No sane, honest person could conclude the shite you're spouting.

Have a half of emulsion, you'll see sense. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 you've obviously ignored mine...

 

I've read all your links.  I've even tried to help you understand what they actually say - that labour shortages in some sectors, caused by both Covid & Brexit, have led some employers to offer wage rises that are very unlikely to last.  If you don't believe me, believe the economists in those two links that you've just posted.

 

I'm still waiting for your links showing "most economists" saying that this current phenomenon overturns years of experience.

[deiseach]

Let them eat appreciation.

[Gnasher]

2 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I've read all your links.  I've even tried to help you understand what they actually say - that labour shortages in some sectors, caused by both Covid & Brexit, have led some employers to offer wage rises that are very unlikely to last.  If you don't believe me, believe the economists in those two links that you've just posted.

 

I'm still waiting for your links showing "most economists" saying that this current phenomenon overturns years of experience.

Well if you've read them you're comments about "a few lorry drivers" shows its you who either hasn't  comprehended them or you've  probably tried to downplay them. As I seem to recall you did with the OConner expose on British firms changing working practices to suit overseas workers, and not for the better. In short Labour have been caught asleep at the wheel when it comes to the representation of low paid/casual/temp workers and its probably a major reason why they lost so many recent elections. Anyway you carry on with the denial I'm off out.  Edit. I gave you two links in my last post giving data on wage rises.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

25 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

you're comments about "a few lorry drivers" 

While you're looking for some evidence of "most economists" saying what you claim they said, could you also find evidence of me saying this, please.

 

Ta.

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

29 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 Edit. I gave you two links in my last post giving data on wage rises.

I read them. They were very interesting.  I especially liked the way they backed up what I've been saying  (as opposed to whatever nonsense you keep pretending that I and others are saying).

[Gnasher]

9 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I read them. They were very interesting.  I especially liked the way they backed up what I've been saying  (as opposed to whatever nonsense you keep pretending that I and others are saying).

Ha what's that? Do they imply their are no staff shortages, no wage rises (except of course for a few lorry drivers) no employer/employee readjustment,  and the Japanese are still in the war? 

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-shortage-is-forcing-pay-up-but-how-long-can-it-last-n2pvczpc7

 

And as this ft article suggests, staff shortages mean "better working conditions and increased bargaining power for workers" 

Who'd have thought it?  

 

https://www.ft.com/content/73bdd783-ad53-4d78-93d8-39c895b88bc4

 

The above is paywall, so if you can't access try another article...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/fall-in-workers-rise-in-wages-new-economic-era-pandemic-work

 

 

Jokes aside Angry, these labour shortages are undoubtedly very good news for low paid workers. 

 

https://traveltomorrow.com/brexit-causes-staff-shortages-and-pay-rises-in-uk-hospitality/

 

And another couple you'll also agree with..

 

https://harpers.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/28972/Hospitality_wages_increase_14_25_due_to_staffing_crisis.html

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/brexit-and-britains-labour-shortage-8033872

[Gnasher]

21 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Ha what's that? Do they imply their are no staff shortages, no wage rises (except of course for a few lorry drivers) no employer/employee readjustment,  and the Japanese are still in the war? 

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-shortage-is-forcing-pay-up-but-how-long-can-it-last-n2pvczpc7

 

And as this ft article suggests, staff shortages mean "better working conditions and increased bargaining power for workers" 

Who'd have thought it?  

 

https://www.ft.com/content/73bdd783-ad53-4d78-93d8-39c895b88bc4

 

The above is paywall, so if you can't access try another article...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/fall-in-workers-rise-in-wages-new-economic-era-pandemic-work

 

 

Jokes aside Angry, these labour shortages are undoubtedly very good news for low paid workers. 

 

https://traveltomorrow.com/brexit-causes-staff-shortages-and-pay-rises-in-uk-hospitality/

 

And another couple you'll also agree with..

 

https://harpers.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/28972/Hospitality_wages_increase_14_25_due_to_staffing_crisis.html

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/brexit-and-britains-labour-shortage-8033872

Same up Scotland... staff shortages = wage rises...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-57729288.amp

[Karl_b]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/25/uk-brexit-covid-economy-is-not-having-a-rerun-of-the-1970s

 

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, Karl_b said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/25/uk-brexit-covid-economy-is-not-having-a-rerun-of-the-1970s

 

Good article that giving a different perspective, thanks for posting.

 

He's urging caution mainly because the economy is still getting back to pre pandemic levels and people are still on furlough which are fair and valid points. His last paragraph imo sums up the current situation  nicely.

 

 

[Gnasher]

These staff shortages are our government's fault, can't blame the EU, can't blame British workers, can't blame overseas workers, can't blame brexit and can't blame covid. The Government were warned, by numerous bodies staff shortages were coming. They did nothing.

 

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-coronavirus-care-immigration-jobs_uk_5f7307f1c5b6117cd1042498

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

12 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 they backed up what I've been saying  (as opposed to whatever nonsense you keep pretending that I and others are saying).

 

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Ha what's that? Do they imply their are no staff shortages, no wage rises (except of course for a few lorry drivers) no employer/employee readjustment,  and the Japanese are still in the war

You're special. 

 

You've been doing this thing on a really consistent basis, for years now, where you argue against stuff that nobody is saying.  Is that really the best use of your time?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Ha what's that? Do they imply their are no staff shortages, no wage rises (except of course for a few lorry drivers) no employer/employee readjustment,  and the Japanese are still in the war? 

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-shortage-is-forcing-pay-up-but-how-long-can-it-last-n2pvczpc7

 

And as this ft article suggests, staff shortages mean "better working conditions and increased bargaining power for workers" 

Who'd have thought it?  

 

https://www.ft.com/content/73bdd783-ad53-4d78-93d8-39c895b88bc4

 

The above is paywall, so if you can't access try another article...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/fall-in-workers-rise-in-wages-new-economic-era-pandemic-work

 

 

Jokes aside Angry, these labour shortages are undoubtedly very good news for low paid workers. 

 

https://traveltomorrow.com/brexit-causes-staff-shortages-and-pay-rises-in-uk-hospitality/

 

And another couple you'll also agree with..

 

https://harpers.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/28972/Hospitality_wages_increase_14_25_due_to_staffing_crisis.html

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/brexit-and-britains-labour-shortage-8033872

That Times article supports the argument I've been making, not your stubbornly blinkered optimism.

 

I couldn't see the FT article.

 

The Guardian one is a columnist speculating about the global effect of Covid and concluding that nobody really knows what happens next.

 

None of the other articles say anything we don't already know: that some employers in hospitality are temporarily offering pay rises, as a result of staff shortages, but those pay rises won't last.

 

It's not true to say that the labour shortages (which are caused by Covid and Brexit) are "undoubtedly good news for low-paid workers" because the labour shortages have a lot of different impacts.  One of those impacts - the fact that some employers in some sectors are offering higher wages - is undoubtedly welcome, in the short term.  The other negative impacts, unfortunately, will probably outweigh those pay rises.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Karl_b said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/25/uk-brexit-covid-economy-is-not-having-a-rerun-of-the-1970s

 

Good article that, giving a lot of the points I've been trying to get Gnash to understand, which he dismisses with nonsense about me denying or resenting pay rises.

[Gnasher]

47 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

That Times article supports the argument I've been making, not your stubbornly blinkered optimism.

 

I couldn't see the FT article.

 

The Guardian one is a columnist speculating about the global effect of Covid and concluding that nobody really knows what happens next.

 

None of the other articles say anything we don't already know: that some employers in hospitality are temporarily offering pay rises, as a result of staff shortages, but those pay rises won't last.

 

It's not true to say that the labour shortages (which are caused by Covid and Brexit) are "undoubtedly good news for low-paid workers" because the labour shortages have a lot of different impacts.  One of those impacts - the fact that some employers in some sectors are offering higher wages - is undoubtedly welcome, in the short term.  The other negative impacts, unfortunately, will probably outweigh those pay rises.

Out of interest what negative impacts will outweigh these pay rises? 

 

Another good short article, originally from the times but not behind a paywall. 

 

 

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/business-and-sports/20210614/281517934067109

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 

You're special. 

 

You've been doing this thing on a really consistent basis, for years now, where you argue against stuff that nobody is saying.  Is that really the best use of your time?

I had an hour off from drinking paint, incidentally the EU actually fucked up the quality of our paint when they brought in restrictions on what went in it, ie lead and other such shit. So if you see mediocre paint work don't blame the local painter and decorator blame the EU.

 

I admit the EU changes did bring some very small positives,  we now live a few decades longer through not dying a long drawn out death through paint poisoning.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Out of interest what negative impacts will outweigh these pay rises? 

Off the top of my head...

 

Inflation is an obvious one (caused by shortages of goods, etc, not by increased wages).  A 5% pay rise doesn't really leave you 5% better off.  This will especially hurt hospitality, as the majority of workers aren't getting above-inflation pay rises, so they'll have to cut back on non-essentials.  One of the articles you linked to also suggested that inflation would be likely to lead to an interest rate rise, which could be catastrophic for people and businesses who have loans, mortgages and/or credit cards.

 

Job losses.  Some businesses just won't survive the shortages (because failure to meet orders, etc, will lose them customers). 

 

More power to the multinationals.   The shops, pubs, hotels, etc. least able to survive the current disruption will be the small independents; Tesco & Wetherspoon's will be the winners here.

 

Technological changes.  Through the pandemic, employers have had to develop ways of providing services that don't rely on staff (because staff have not been available).  They will now realise it's cheaper not to employ people. 

 

Policy changes.  We've already seen abusive practices like fire & rehire or the suspension of safety regulations in respect of working hours. We can expect much more of that, together with a further tightening of the already-unjust benefits sanctions system, to starve people into work. 

 

There's probably more, but that will do for now.

[Rico1304]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/31/its-not-covid-thats-damaging-british-trade-its-brexit

[Gnasher]

6 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Off the top of my head...

 

Inflation is an obvious one (caused by shortages of goods, etc, not by increased wages).  A 5% pay rise doesn't really leave you 5% better off.  This will especially hurt hospitality, as the majority of workers aren't getting above-inflation pay rises, so they'll have to cut back on non-essentials.  One of the articles you linked to also suggested that inflation would be likely to lead to an interest rate rise, which could be catastrophic for people and businesses who have loans, mortgages and/or credit cards.

 

Job losses.  Some businesses just won't survive the shortages (because failure to meet orders, etc, will lose them customers). 

 

More power to the multinationals.   The shops, pubs, hotels, etc. least able to survive the current disruption will be the small independents; Tesco & Wetherspoon's will be the winners here.

 

Technological changes.  Through the pandemic, employers have had to develop ways of providing services that don't rely on staff (because staff have not been available).  They will now realise it's cheaper not to employ people. 

 

Policy changes.  We've already seen abusive practices like fire & rehire or the suspension of safety regulations in respect of working hours. We can expect much more of that, together with a further tightening of the already-unjust benefits sanctions system, to starve people into work. 

 

There's probably more, but that will do for now.

Inflation? Are you serious?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Inflation? Are you serious?

Yes. Aren't you?

[Gnasher]

More evidence of wage rises, 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/01/employers-offer-golden-hellos-of-up-to-10k-amid-worker-shortage

[Gnasher]

On 31/07/2021 at 23:15, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Yes. Aren't you?

I'm not worried about inflation no. Inflation is often the sign of a robust economy, as long as it doesn't spiral out of control theirs little to worry about. A low inflation low wage economy (which we've had for the past two decades) brings increased poverty and inequality.

[Bruce Spanner]

FOLLOWING PROTOCOL: Almost half of British voters who are aware of trade problems with Northern Ireland blame the EU for those frictions, compared with just 31 percent who believe the U.K. is mostly responsible, an exclusive poll for POLITICO by Redfield and Wilton Strategies, conducted among 1,500 eligible voters in Great Britain on July 29, found. Thirty-five percent of people were “moderately aware” of the trade problems with Northern Ireland, while 17 percent said they were “very aware” of those issues. Twenty-five percent say they were “somewhat aware,” while 23 percent said they were not at all aware. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

I'm not worried about inflation no. Inflation is often the sign of a robust economy, as long as it doesn't spiral out of control theirs little to worry about. A low inflation low wage economy (which we've had for the past two decades) brings increased poverty and inequality.

You at least have to acknowledge the specific problems with inflation - and the other problems - set out in my post.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

More evidence of wage rises, 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/01/employers-offer-golden-hellos-of-up-to-10k-amid-worker-shortage

It’s not evidence at all.

 

It’s practically begging people with money to come

to work for one particular sector that has been treated with contempt throughout the pandemic. A sector that is vital for our society to support itself, Health & Social care. 
 

A £10k handshake isn’t going to convince anyone that working for shit money and be treated like shit, is the future.