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Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

312 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      254
    • No
      58


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3 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

He called for Article 50 to be invoked before May!

 

Can we not have a reappraisal, he's a confirmed Euro-Sceptic and his action in parliament support that, he is part of the reason the UK is now out of the EU, this is not in question.

 

Even recently Brown, Milliband and McCluskey have called for more immigration control, as have the Socialist party - Formally 'Millitant' and various others, the argumnets for this vary, but at the heart of it it's to protect 'our' workers rights and wages.

 

It's hard for 'us' to accept that we ain't always the heros we want to be, but hand waving away legitimate examples does nobody any favours.

 

Theoretically Socialism is bound to protect it's 'own', you can make the argument that internationalism would further those aims, as a lot try to do with argument about unions growing etc, but at the heart of it it has to be protectionist to prevent capitalism's folly reducing workers rights to naught in the nation state.

 

Here's Corbyns record on Europe, I'm not getting a strong 'I heart Europe' vibe.

 

  • Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.
  • Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.
  • Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.
  • In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.
  • Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).
  • In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)
  • Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.
  • In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.
  • Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.
  • The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.
  • In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.
  • Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.
  • During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.
  • In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.
  • In 2018, Jeremy Corbyn said he would try to make  Brexit go ahead even if Labour won a general election before it happened.
  • In February 2019, Jeremy Corbyn set out how he was ready to back Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
  • In March 2019, writing in the Daily Mirror, Jeremy Corbyn repeated his support for Brexit, saying, “I will continue to reach out to get a decent Brexit deal”.

 

An interview with his feeling on immigration...

 

'"Labour is not wedded to freedom of movement for EU citizens as a point of principle, but I don't want that to be misinterpreted, nor do we rule it out," he said.

 

"We cannot afford to lose full access to the European markets on which so many British businesses and jobs depend. "Changes to the way migration rules operate from the EU will be part of the negotiations."

 

Talking to the BBC's political editor, Mr Corbyn, who has repeatedly insisted since becoming leader that EU migration to the UK is not too high, was asked if the speech meant he had now changed his view.

 

He replied: "No. My mind is quite clear that we need to end the exploitation that's going on, we need to maintain a market access within Europe and we need to ensure there are good relations between all communities."

 

Mr Corbyn said the focus should be on ending the abuse of low-skilled workers under existing EU employment rules and promoting more local recruitment - which he argued would "probably" reduce immigration, irrespective of Brexit.

 

Asked whether he agreed that anyone without a job offer should be barred from coming to the UK, he said: "We are not saying that anyone could not come here because there would be the right of travel and so on.

 

"The right to work here would be something that would have to be negotiated."

The Labour leader said the "grotesque exploitation" of EU migrants by some UK companies had caused "awful tensions" in communities because of the under-cutting of wages.

 

But he defended the role of migrants in helping the NHS and other public services function.

 

While the UK was definitely leaving the EU, he said it could not "avoid" having a close trading relationship with the continent.

 

"What we don't want to do is turn Britain into a bargain-basement economy on the shores of Europe where we continuously reduce corporation taxation, encourage a low-wage economy," he said.

 

"Instead what we want is a high-value economy with skilled jobs promoting high-quality exports."

Do we really have to go round this argument again? It was pointless first time around. 

 

What you've posted is a litany summarising the case of those who claimed that Corbyn was a closet Brexiteer (because they had convinced themselves that the route to electoral success was to oppose Brexit  - great instincts they've got  - and therefore they could paint Corbyn as a liability by linking him to Brexit) but still they couldn’t find a single example of Corbyn unequivocally calling for the UK to leave the EU until a majority of people had voted for exactly that.

 

And it's pretty clear from that interview that if Socialists are supposed to be horny for nationalistic protectionism, then he's no Socialist. 

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Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Do we really have to go round this argument again? It was pointless first time around. 

 

What you've posted is a litany summarising the case of those who claimed that Corbyn was a closet Brexiteer (because they had convinced themselves that the route to electoral success was to oppose Brexit  - great instincts they've got  - and therefore they could paint Corbyn as a liability by linking him to Brexit) but still they couldn’t find a single example of Corbyn unequivocally calling for the UK to leave the EU until a majority of people had voted for exactly that.

 

And it's pretty clear from that interview that if Socialists are supposed to be horny for nationalistic protectionism, then he's no Socialist. 

 

No, I agree, it's pointless, but positioning him as anything other than anti EU is revisionism I didn't think possible.

 

Anyhows we're on the same team, with the majority of the same views and ambitions for folk, so ain't nothing but love for you. Mal.

 

Have a great night.

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3 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Can we not have a reappraisal, he's a confirmed Euro-Sceptic and his action in parliament support that, he is part of the reason the UK is now out of the EU, this is not in question.

"This is not in question".

 

I disagree!

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7 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

"This is not in question".

 

I disagree!

 

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No it isn't. 

 

Goodnight. 

 

Good for you.

 

Hs voting record and the subsequent vigour with which he threw himself in to the referendum kinda says otherwise, but hey-ho.

 

I am not wasting time arguing over Corbyn.

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18 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Did they specifically vote because of free movement? Or did they vote because of the reasons I said?

Not sure on the specifics Angry, I know Crow was against free movement, I'd wager the others were also although I've no concrete proof. As you say though it does come with the package and all of Foot, Bevan, Attlee and Benn were 100% against the package.

 

One clue might be Atlee's treatment of Poles after the war. Whilst Tory pm Neville Chamberlain (to a lot of raised eyebrows in the commons) guaranteed all Polish people British citizenship, Atlee refused the Polish a place in the 1946 victory parade after the war, he also suggested they went back home. Nye Bevan was understood to have taken the same position. 

 

Atlee was a privately educated patriot. He was also Britains greatest prime minister. I can only imagine the response if he aired those veiws on here.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28979789

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15 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

I am not wasting time arguing over Corbyn.

Probably best.  That's basically the reason I stayed off this thread for as long as I could.  (Less than a full day. I have a problem!)

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2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Not sure on the specifics Angry, I know Crow was against free movement, I'd wager the others were also although I've no concrete proof. As you say though it does come with the package and all of Foot, Bevan, Attlee and Benn were 100% against the package.

 

One clue might be Atlee's treatment of Poles after the war. Whilst Tory pm Neville Chamberlain (to a lot of raised eyebrows in the commons) guaranteed all Polish people British citizenship, Atlee refused the Polish a place in the 1946 victory parade after the war, he also suggested they went back home. Nye Bevan was understood to have taken the same position. 

 

Atlee was a privately educated patriot. He was also Britains greatest prime minister. I can only imagine the response if he aired those veiws on here.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28979789

Fucking hell.  "Yeah, thanks for the Battle of Britain and all, but would you mind fucking off back where you came from, please."

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3 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Fucking hell.  "Yeah, thanks for the Battle of Britain and all, but would you mind fucking off back where you came from, please."

Well I don't think it was meant in that sense, but Atlee was a protectionist.

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4 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Fucking hell.  "Yeah, thanks for the Battle of Britain and all, but would you mind fucking off back where you came from, please."

I'm surprised Gnasher didn't complain about Polish airmen surpressing the wages of British services men and women in the 1940s along with providing an article where he thinks that's what it says.

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I know they say you can't judge a book by its cover, but when you write a book on Brexit and you choose to put Hogarth's The Madhouse (from The Rake's Progress) on the cover, it's probably fair to say you're not a fan.

 

Image

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Posted without comment.

Quote

'Devastating': Crops left to rot in England as Brexit begins to bite
By Luke Hanrahan and Chris Harris

Updated: 22/07/2021

Fruit and vegetables are being left to rot in England as Brexit deters migrants from taking up picking jobs.

 

Farmers have told Euronews that restrictions to freedom of movement have had a "devastating" impact.

 

Brexit -- the effects of which kicked-in at the start of the year -- means hiring migrant pickers from eastern Europe is now much harder.

 

Barfoots of Botley, a farming company based on England's south coast near Bognor Regis, said 750,000 courgettes were being left to rot.


They say that's because they can’t get the staff and if the situation continues it will force them to make difficult decisions about their future.

 

“Restricting free movement has had a devasting impact," said managing director Julian Marks. "But not just on agriculture and horticulture – on pretty much every sector where people from abroad have been working in those sectors for years and now. They’re going home."

 

Marks said as a consequence the firm is struggling to fulfil the demands of the supermarkets. He thinks it's inevitable either shelves will be left empty or the likes of Sainsbury's and Tescos will turn to EU imports to fill the gaps.

 

He added it was "tragic" and "demoralising" to see so many vegetables go to waste, saying the situation is worse than expected.


It's a sentiment echoed by Mark Knight, technical crops manager at Tangmere Airfield Nurseries, the largest farm of its kind in the UK. He told Euronews the extent to which migrants had stayed away had taken him by surprise.

 

The farm's general manager, Gerrard Vonk, said they had relied on seasonal pickers from Eastern Europe for 33 years.

 

But since Brexit, there are "more barriers, more red tape and much more difficulty to actually come and work over here."

 

Vonk said he had 72 fewer workers than last year and, as a consequence of the shortages, crops are being left to over-ripen rather than be harvested.

 

Both Knight and Vonk think the root cause is Brexit, rather than COVID-related travel restrictions. They say Europeans do not feel at home in the UK and they are urging the government to launch a PR campaign to invite them to return.

 

Boris Johnson's government has launched a PR drive -- but that was last year and aimed at getting Britons to help harvest crops.

 

Called Pick for Britain, it was aimed at encouraging those left unemployed by the pandemic to fill the gap left by migrant workers.

 

But one agency, Pro-Force, said of the 450 UK-based workers it placed under the scheme, just 4 per cent were still in their roles by the end of the season.

 

"Common feedback from the British nationals placed by Pro-Force was that many of them wanted to 'do their bit' at time of national crisis but did not see this as a long term, viable option to provide the labour the industry needs in 2021 and beyond," said James Mallick from Pro-Force in written evidence to a parliamentary committee.

 

Euronews contacted the UK government to respond to criticism in this article but had not received a response by the time of publication.

 

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3 minutes ago, deiseach said:

Mind if I comment? Im crying buckets, for the employers/bosses/landowners, buckets of laughter. More fantastic news for employees and those looking for work.....

 

Same goes for the building and hospitality sector.... 

 

 

 

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On 25/07/2021 at 11:33, AngryOfTuebrook said:

At least you did the cherry-picking yourself, instead of flying in some immigrants to do it.

 

20210725_113233.png

The problem with free movement having an adverse affect on the poor is these are life changing sums for a lot of disadvantaged people. 

 

Approx 75.000 homeless people are actually in work, they obviously can't afford a permanent address because of low wages. These wage rises in agriculture/construction/hospitality because of Brexit/Covid could mean having the means to gain a safe and secure residence.  

 

These are the people ignored and neglected by the modern day Labour Party. Well not entirely ignored, when addressed they're normally referred to as thick/racist/bigot/gammon etc

 

https://news.sky.com/video/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-working-homeless-12362158

 

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Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

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3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

Wrong wrong wrong.

 

You're not removing workers to move freely you are removing the easy loophole to stop overseas workers being expoilted, driving down wages and thus causing unnecessary conflicts with existing workers/immigrants in communities. 

 

I refer you to the O'connor report for a well balanced veiw of slave labour occurring in this country.

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3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

Come on Angry get in the real world, you're a Labour Party member? Start sticking up for these kids then ffs.

 

I'll give you a scenario, some 17 year old kid wants a bit of hospitality work before going to Uni or in her holidays or maybe she likes the profession and wants the work, would you REALLY prefer her to jump through coals for some cunt filled middle manager? Because that's what these kids used to have to do before Brexit took away the cheap labour Angry. Look at the people for job ratio now, have a bit of that and these are youngsters from Labour heartlands. About 70 fucking thousand homeless have a full time job, they are homeless because the wages paid are not enough to gain safe and secure accommodation. These wage rises could change a lot of lives, they could save a lot of lives. 

 

You've read the Migration report confirming these poor cunts have had a bad time of it though EU Migration, and  through no fault of their own, yet we continue to mock, laugh and scorn and give these poor fuckers lazy labels.

 

70 thousand homeless Brits in full time work, Seventy fucking thousand have done a days work today yet can't afford a roof for safety tonight, and if you added those doing a bit on the side/ black market the figures would probably be tenfold

 

So I really couldn't give a fuck about some Polish building site labourer or a Latvian lorry driver or a Slovakian coffee shop worker.  Sorry but I really couldn't, I couldn't give a fuck.

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9 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

All these wage rises are good and well Gnasher, but it’s no good if nobody wants to do them. 

Very true. That's where the modern day thinking comes in (don't look to me) where workers get flexibility on hours, childcare, possible four day week, split employment, stakes in the firm etc  it's now the natural way forward, rather than bussing in imigrant/cheap labour.

 

The downside is in agriculture, construction etc prices will rise as will inflation. 

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4 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

People moved from Ireland to England in droves in the 50's and 80's. By the logic of restricting movement, this made Ireland richer and England poorer.

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40 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Very true. That's where the modern day thinking comes in (don't look to me) where workers get flexibility on hours, childcare, possible four day week, split employment, stakes in the firm etc  it's now the natural way forward, rather than bussing in imigrant/cheap labour.

 

The downside is in agriculture, construction etc prices will rise as will inflation. 

Also a lot of low paid people are ALREADY in these low paid jobs that most do not want to do and are now more secure in their work. A lot of plus points.

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2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Wrong wrong wrong.

 

You're not removing workers to move freely

It literally is removing the right of workers to work abroad.   You can argue about whether or not that's justified, but you can't just deny it.

 

As for slavery, removing the rights of migrant workers empowers the exploiters; that's pretty much a universal law.

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29 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It literally is removing the right of workers to work abroad.   You can argue about whether or not that's justified, but you can't just deny it.

 

As for slavery, removing the rights of migrant workers empowers the exploiters; that's pretty much a universal law.

Are you for real? Low paid workers are receiving pay rises across the country, that's a fact.THEY are the ones Brexit has empowered.

 

Not sure whose side you're on tbh..

 

https://www.hrreview.co.uk/hr-news/increasing-pay-and-working-conditions-will-help-to-attract-and-retain-staff-post-brexit-study-states/130058

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On 27/07/2021 at 19:04, Gnasher said:

Are you for real? Low paid workers are receiving pay rises across the country, that's a fact.THEY are the ones Brexit has empowered.

 

Not sure whose side you're on tbh..

 

https://www.hrreview.co.uk/hr-news/increasing-pay-and-working-conditions-will-help-to-attract-and-retain-staff-post-brexit-study-states/130058

Will you for once just admit a basic fact: citizens of the EU have the right to live and work in any country in the EU.  You can bicker all days about the pros & cons of that fact, but you can’t just deny it. 

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