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Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

316 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      258
    • No
      58


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15 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

I am not wasting time arguing over Corbyn.

Probably best.  That's basically the reason I stayed off this thread for as long as I could.  (Less than a full day. I have a problem!)

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2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Not sure on the specifics Angry, I know Crow was against free movement, I'd wager the others were also although I've no concrete proof. As you say though it does come with the package and all of Foot, Bevan, Attlee and Benn were 100% against the package.

 

One clue might be Atlee's treatment of Poles after the war. Whilst Tory pm Neville Chamberlain (to a lot of raised eyebrows in the commons) guaranteed all Polish people British citizenship, Atlee refused the Polish a place in the 1946 victory parade after the war, he also suggested they went back home. Nye Bevan was understood to have taken the same position. 

 

Atlee was a privately educated patriot. He was also Britains greatest prime minister. I can only imagine the response if he aired those veiws on here.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28979789

Fucking hell.  "Yeah, thanks for the Battle of Britain and all, but would you mind fucking off back where you came from, please."

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3 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Fucking hell.  "Yeah, thanks for the Battle of Britain and all, but would you mind fucking off back where you came from, please."

Well I don't think it was meant in that sense, but Atlee was a protectionist.

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4 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Fucking hell.  "Yeah, thanks for the Battle of Britain and all, but would you mind fucking off back where you came from, please."

I'm surprised Gnasher didn't complain about Polish airmen surpressing the wages of British services men and women in the 1940s along with providing an article where he thinks that's what it says.

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I know they say you can't judge a book by its cover, but when you write a book on Brexit and you choose to put Hogarth's The Madhouse (from The Rake's Progress) on the cover, it's probably fair to say you're not a fan.

 

Image

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Posted without comment.

Quote

'Devastating': Crops left to rot in England as Brexit begins to bite
By Luke Hanrahan and Chris Harris

Updated: 22/07/2021

Fruit and vegetables are being left to rot in England as Brexit deters migrants from taking up picking jobs.

 

Farmers have told Euronews that restrictions to freedom of movement have had a "devastating" impact.

 

Brexit -- the effects of which kicked-in at the start of the year -- means hiring migrant pickers from eastern Europe is now much harder.

 

Barfoots of Botley, a farming company based on England's south coast near Bognor Regis, said 750,000 courgettes were being left to rot.


They say that's because they can’t get the staff and if the situation continues it will force them to make difficult decisions about their future.

 

“Restricting free movement has had a devasting impact," said managing director Julian Marks. "But not just on agriculture and horticulture – on pretty much every sector where people from abroad have been working in those sectors for years and now. They’re going home."

 

Marks said as a consequence the firm is struggling to fulfil the demands of the supermarkets. He thinks it's inevitable either shelves will be left empty or the likes of Sainsbury's and Tescos will turn to EU imports to fill the gaps.

 

He added it was "tragic" and "demoralising" to see so many vegetables go to waste, saying the situation is worse than expected.


It's a sentiment echoed by Mark Knight, technical crops manager at Tangmere Airfield Nurseries, the largest farm of its kind in the UK. He told Euronews the extent to which migrants had stayed away had taken him by surprise.

 

The farm's general manager, Gerrard Vonk, said they had relied on seasonal pickers from Eastern Europe for 33 years.

 

But since Brexit, there are "more barriers, more red tape and much more difficulty to actually come and work over here."

 

Vonk said he had 72 fewer workers than last year and, as a consequence of the shortages, crops are being left to over-ripen rather than be harvested.

 

Both Knight and Vonk think the root cause is Brexit, rather than COVID-related travel restrictions. They say Europeans do not feel at home in the UK and they are urging the government to launch a PR campaign to invite them to return.

 

Boris Johnson's government has launched a PR drive -- but that was last year and aimed at getting Britons to help harvest crops.

 

Called Pick for Britain, it was aimed at encouraging those left unemployed by the pandemic to fill the gap left by migrant workers.

 

But one agency, Pro-Force, said of the 450 UK-based workers it placed under the scheme, just 4 per cent were still in their roles by the end of the season.

 

"Common feedback from the British nationals placed by Pro-Force was that many of them wanted to 'do their bit' at time of national crisis but did not see this as a long term, viable option to provide the labour the industry needs in 2021 and beyond," said James Mallick from Pro-Force in written evidence to a parliamentary committee.

 

Euronews contacted the UK government to respond to criticism in this article but had not received a response by the time of publication.

 

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3 minutes ago, deiseach said:

Mind if I comment? Im crying buckets, for the employers/bosses/landowners, buckets of laughter. More fantastic news for employees and those looking for work.....

 

Same goes for the building and hospitality sector.... 

 

 

 

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On 25/07/2021 at 11:33, AngryOfTuebrook said:

At least you did the cherry-picking yourself, instead of flying in some immigrants to do it.

 

20210725_113233.png

The problem with free movement having an adverse affect on the poor is these are life changing sums for a lot of disadvantaged people. 

 

Approx 75.000 homeless people are actually in work, they obviously can't afford a permanent address because of low wages. These wage rises in agriculture/construction/hospitality because of Brexit/Covid could mean having the means to gain a safe and secure residence.  

 

These are the people ignored and neglected by the modern day Labour Party. Well not entirely ignored, when addressed they're normally referred to as thick/racist/bigot/gammon etc

 

https://news.sky.com/video/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-working-homeless-12362158

 

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Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

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3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

Wrong wrong wrong.

 

You're not removing workers to move freely you are removing the easy loophole to stop overseas workers being expoilted, driving down wages and thus causing unnecessary conflicts with existing workers/immigrants in communities. 

 

I refer you to the O'connor report for a well balanced veiw of slave labour occurring in this country.

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3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

Come on Angry get in the real world, you're a Labour Party member? Start sticking up for these kids then ffs.

 

I'll give you a scenario, some 17 year old kid wants a bit of hospitality work before going to Uni or in her holidays or maybe she likes the profession and wants the work, would you REALLY prefer her to jump through coals for some cunt filled middle manager? Because that's what these kids used to have to do before Brexit took away the cheap labour Angry. Look at the people for job ratio now, have a bit of that and these are youngsters from Labour heartlands. About 70 fucking thousand homeless have a full time job, they are homeless because the wages paid are not enough to gain safe and secure accommodation. These wage rises could change a lot of lives, they could save a lot of lives. 

 

You've read the Migration report confirming these poor cunts have had a bad time of it though EU Migration, and  through no fault of their own, yet we continue to mock, laugh and scorn and give these poor fuckers lazy labels.

 

70 thousand homeless Brits in full time work, Seventy fucking thousand have done a days work today yet can't afford a roof for safety tonight, and if you added those doing a bit on the side/ black market the figures would probably be tenfold

 

So I really couldn't give a fuck about some Polish building site labourer or a Latvian lorry driver or a Slovakian coffee shop worker.  Sorry but I really couldn't, I couldn't give a fuck.

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9 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

All these wage rises are good and well Gnasher, but it’s no good if nobody wants to do them. 

Very true. That's where the modern day thinking comes in (don't look to me) where workers get flexibility on hours, childcare, possible four day week, split employment, stakes in the firm etc  it's now the natural way forward, rather than bussing in imigrant/cheap labour.

 

The downside is in agriculture, construction etc prices will rise as will inflation. 

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4 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Poverty isn't caused by free movement; it's caused (for want of a fuller, more nuanced argument) by Tories.

 

Removing workers' right to move freely will not remove poverty. 

People moved from Ireland to England in droves in the 50's and 80's. By the logic of restricting movement, this made Ireland richer and England poorer.

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40 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Very true. That's where the modern day thinking comes in (don't look to me) where workers get flexibility on hours, childcare, possible four day week, split employment, stakes in the firm etc  it's now the natural way forward, rather than bussing in imigrant/cheap labour.

 

The downside is in agriculture, construction etc prices will rise as will inflation. 

Also a lot of low paid people are ALREADY in these low paid jobs that most do not want to do and are now more secure in their work. A lot of plus points.

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2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Wrong wrong wrong.

 

You're not removing workers to move freely

It literally is removing the right of workers to work abroad.   You can argue about whether or not that's justified, but you can't just deny it.

 

As for slavery, removing the rights of migrant workers empowers the exploiters; that's pretty much a universal law.

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29 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It literally is removing the right of workers to work abroad.   You can argue about whether or not that's justified, but you can't just deny it.

 

As for slavery, removing the rights of migrant workers empowers the exploiters; that's pretty much a universal law.

Are you for real? Low paid workers are receiving pay rises across the country, that's a fact.THEY are the ones Brexit has empowered.

 

Not sure whose side you're on tbh..

 

https://www.hrreview.co.uk/hr-news/increasing-pay-and-working-conditions-will-help-to-attract-and-retain-staff-post-brexit-study-states/130058

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On 27/07/2021 at 19:04, Gnasher said:

Are you for real? Low paid workers are receiving pay rises across the country, that's a fact.THEY are the ones Brexit has empowered.

 

Not sure whose side you're on tbh..

 

https://www.hrreview.co.uk/hr-news/increasing-pay-and-working-conditions-will-help-to-attract-and-retain-staff-post-brexit-study-states/130058

Will you for once just admit a basic fact: citizens of the EU have the right to live and work in any country in the EU.  You can bicker all days about the pros & cons of that fact, but you can’t just deny it. 

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On 27/07/2021 at 19:04, Gnasher said:

Are you for real? Low paid workers are receiving pay rises across the country, that's a fact.THEY are the ones Brexit has empowered.

 

Not sure whose side you're on tbh..

 

https://www.hrreview.co.uk/hr-news/increasing-pay-and-working-conditions-will-help-to-attract-and-retain-staff-post-brexit-study-states/130058

You already know my opinion on the recent payrises: they're welcome, but they're (a) not wholly attributable to some wonderful "Brexit bonus" and (b) they won't last - the people who "got Brexit done did so for the benefit of their class, not the workers.

 

And I'm very much "for real" when it comes to issues of modern slavery.  Reducing the rights of migrant workers strengthens the hold that the slavers have over them - every slaver, every victim and every campaigner knows this. Post-Covid, workers from the poorer parts of Europe will still come to the UK  (albeit in smaller numbers) but they will do so without any rights or legal protections, thanks to Brexit. 

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I don't get the lefts anguish at some gaps on supermarket shelves. If they're the result of Brexit or Covid is immaterial (most analysts say its a mixture of both) All it does is prove the true value of the worker like nothing else every could. Ie if the public/employer or employee didn't know how important these low paid menial staff were 12 months or so ago they certainly do now and that newly realised reality is not changing anytime soon.

 

Ie If some twat faced middle manager in the local coffee shop wants to pull rank with a girl working the floor she's now got the power to tell him to get fucked and walk across the road and get another job, same for Tesco staff, construction workers, veg pickers, warehouse workers.

 

When workers like miners/teachers/steelworkers/London underground etc went on strike they wanted the government and public to feel the impact, that's how they become valued. One things for sure their is certainly a revaluation of low paid workers across the country right now and I believe we should welcome it..

 

 

Just in, yet more evidence of the ever changing dynamics between money and labour..

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/27/tesco-offers-lorry-drivers-1000-signing-on-fee-due-to-shortage

 

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1 hour ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Gnasher, I seem to be the only person that agrees with you. Brexit has shifted the power dynamic in the labour market so all the people who got rich on the back of the semi slave economy (farmers, house builders, Amazon, Uber, Sport direct etc) can't treat their workers like shit anymore. Really don't see why the Left are not celebrating this fact. I think people got so entrenched over Brexit that they are mentally incapable of admitting they got it wrong and for the working class of this country, its been a good thing. 

I agree but the debate has the big black shadow of the leave campaign being run by the biggest bunch of no good cunts Europe has seen since the fall of Stalin..

 

Stalin the mass murderer who both Winston Churchill and Clem Attlee colluded with to achieve this country's aims, sometimes however unpalatable its just got to be done.

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1 minute ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

I think actual discussion has been lost in the childish tribalism of personality politics. People don't like the Tories so cannot bring themselves to agree with anything they are doing. The reality is that Brexit has ended obscene subsidies to millionaire landowners, working class wages are going up, economic growth will be > 7% this year, trade with the EU has carried on and the semi slave economy in the UK has ended. 

I agree, the bullshit was on both sides. I remember the government machine warning of medical shortages, house price deflation and massive job losses and wage cuts if we voted out. They also sent government sponsored paraphernalia to every home in Britain. None of which was true and none of which has happened. The lies went both ways. 

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9 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Are everyone's wages going up?

Ssshhhh!

 

Don't spoil Gnasher and Kurtz's love-in. I'm interested to see where this flirting goes.

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