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Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

312 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      254
    • No
      58


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1 hour ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

It’s not ludicrous, it’s the logical  extension of your argument. If being in the EU reduces the chances of war between member states then if one of those states leaves, the logic of your argument is that the chances of a war between that state and an EU member state must inevitably increase (otherwise being in the EU doesn’t make any difference to the state of peace in Europe). Hence the question, now that we have left the EU do you think it is slightly more likely that we are going to go to war with France, a country we have a long history of going to war against ? Logically you have got to say yes but you know it’s nonsense and the fact that we aren’t is nothing to do with the EU. 

You do struggle with logic, don't you.

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15 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I always thought the anti war argument against leaving the EU was facile. Most of these nations are in NATO and have a incredible levels of interoperability and cooperation because of it. To hand wave that away is probably due to lack of understanding about how these countries militaries operate. 

Thing is I don't believe the remain side mentioned going to war. Cunt Boris picked up on an interview with Cunt Cameron and started talking about project Fear now talking about war.

 

I'd have to Google what exactly was said but it's just too much effort in the current heat.

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1 minute ago, skend04 said:

Thing is I don't believe the remain side mentioned going to war. Cunt Boris picked up on an interview with Cunt Cameron and started talking about project Fear now talking about war.

 

I'd have to Google what exactly was said but it's just too much effort in the current heat.

I was more talking about those on here who make it, like angry. Not sure what the actual remain campaign were saying. 

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From 2016

 

In his speech Cameron argued that the EU has helped to “anchor peace and stability across the European continent” by binding the continent together. 

“The European Union has helped reconcile countries which were once at each others’ throats for decades. Britain has a fundamental national interest in maintaining common purpose in Europe to avoid future conflict between European countries,” the prime minister said.

 

A key weakness in Cameron’s argument is that security in western and central Europe, and parts of eastern Europe, is not, for the most part, within the remit of the EU. It is mainly a matter for the US-led transatlantic alliance that has existed since the end of the second world war, Nato.

Nato is a military alliance, with a HQ in Brussels, a central command and control structure, running a huge force of soldiers and equipment from more than 20 countries. They conduct major training exercises annually throughout the region. The EU has no army, no common defence policy and no common foreign policy. 

If Russia was to mount an aggressive campaign in the Baltics or along the Polish border, it would be Nato troops that would be confronting them. 

If the UK was to leave the EU, it would not make the slightest difference to its membership of NATO.

 

Cameron said that UK influence is greater these days than at any time since the low point of the Suez crisis in 1956 and attributes this in part to Europe. Not true. The UK does not have military forces remotely comparable to what it had in 1956 or even 10 years ago.

It has influence through being a permanent member of the UN security council and leaving the EU would not affect that. 

But as always the dominant force in western security is the US. All other countries, including the UK, are by comparison bit players. Whether the UK is in or out of the EU would not alter that fact.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/09/is-david-cameron-right-leaving-eu-brexit-increase-risk-war

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26 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I always thought the anti war argument against leaving the EU was facile. Most of these nations are in NATO and have a incredible levels of interoperability and cooperation because of it. To hand wave that away is probably due to lack of understanding about how these countries militaries operate. 

I don't think it's an argument against the UK leaving the EU, but it's definitely worth mentioning to nobheads who bang on as if no good has ever come from the existence of the EU and who want the EU to disintegrate. 

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12 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I was more talking about those on here who make it, like angry. Not sure what the actual remain campaign were saying. 

*ahem*

 

I have never used that as an argument about the UK's membership. 

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28 minutes ago, Poster said:

From 2016

 

In his speech Cameron argued that the EU has helped to “anchor peace and stability across the European continent” by binding the continent together. 

“The European Union has helped reconcile countries which were once at each others’ throats for decades. Britain has a fundamental national interest in maintaining common purpose in Europe to avoid future conflict between European countries,” the prime minister said.

 

A key weakness in Cameron’s argument is that security in western and central Europe, and parts of eastern Europe, is not, for the most part, within the remit of the EU. It is mainly a matter for the US-led transatlantic alliance that has existed since the end of the second world war, Nato.

Nato is a military alliance, with a HQ in Brussels, a central command and control structure, running a huge force of soldiers and equipment from more than 20 countries. They conduct major training exercises annually throughout the region. The EU has no army, no common defence policy and no common foreign policy. 

If Russia was to mount an aggressive campaign in the Baltics or along the Polish border, it would be Nato troops that would be confronting them. 

If the UK was to leave the EU, it would not make the slightest difference to its membership of NATO.

 

Cameron said that UK influence is greater these days than at any time since the low point of the Suez crisis in 1956 and attributes this in part to Europe. Not true. The UK does not have military forces remotely comparable to what it had in 1956 or even 10 years ago.

It has influence through being a permanent member of the UN security council and leaving the EU would not affect that. 

But as always the dominant force in western security is the US. All other countries, including the UK, are by comparison bit players. Whether the UK is in or out of the EU would not alter that fact.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/09/is-david-cameron-right-leaving-eu-brexit-increase-risk-war

Good article. This 'being in the EU keeps us all safe' by the likes of Cameron is plainly a load of old bollocks.

 

I doubt the Scandinavian or other citizens who are not part of  EU have spent the last thirty years living in fear of being invaded by France.

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18 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Oh for fuck sake. Why would you say such a thing. It's so obviously untrue. 

No.

 

It's very easy. Search this thread to find examples of me using the peace argument as a reason for the UK to remain (as opposed to when I've used it as an argument against the disintegration of the EU) and I'll admit I'm wrong.  Until then...

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40 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No.

 

It's very easy. Search this thread to find examples of me using the peace argument as a reason for the UK to remain (as opposed to when I've used it as an argument against the disintegration of the EU) and I'll admit I'm wrong.  Until then...

I already did that before I replied, of course. I wouldn't have called you out for telling porkies if I hadn't just read you saying it. Before I share the post, I want you to answer one question, do you know what Ipse Dixit is? Do you realise that you typing 'no' doesn't make it so. You seem to believe that things are true because you've said them.

 

Anyway, in the full knowledge that you'll not actually answer that question, and in the knowledge that you'll now try to pretend that the stated benefits of staying in an organisation aren't reason for not leaving the organisation - as anything will be more palatable than just holding your hands up and saying 'huh, fair enough' - I'll post it anyway, but before I do, why didn't you just admit it? If you think that the organisation makes it impossible to go to war, why wouldn't you just admit that - as you did in the post that I'm about to share - it is one of the benefits of staying in the EU and not leaving it. It's absolutely weird that people box themselves into these corners. I'm actually rolling my eyes at what will be a painful response about how it doesn't mean what it says and how I'm a cunt and yadda fucking yadda. This is all so fucking tedious, Angry. If you think it, just say it. 

 

In response to the question 'what are the benefits of STAYING in the EU' which is to say, not leaving (surely, please, just accept that staying is the opposite to leaving when talking about membership of the EU, otherwise just call me a cunt and I can forget this entire thing) you replied talking about the impossibility of war. So to say you've not used it regarding the UK's membership of the EU is - being generous - forgetfulness. You keep doing this. You keep pretending you don't hold positions you clearly do. You do it with Corbyn and you've done it again. Anyway...

 

On 08/10/2017 at 01:01, sho' nuff said:

What are the benefits of staying in the EU?.

On 08/10/2017 at 01:01, AngryOfTuebrook said:

28 countries who can't/won't resort to war to settle their differences.

That's pretty clear, but if not, here's another one.

On 17/06/2016 at 20:40, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Membership of the EU pretty much makes war between Member States impossible [...] There may be good reasons for wanting the UK to leave the EU, but everyone who votes should first understand what is at stake and try to decide whether they want to throw it away cheaply.

 

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19 hours ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Since we’ve been in the EU, we’ve been to war with Iraq and Argentina plus interventions in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Kuwait. The idea that the EU has led to peace is just propaganda. 

Here’s a fact for you. In 2020, every farm animal in Europe was subsidised by about €100 by the EU tax payer whereas the equivalent EU aid to actual people in sub Saharan Africa was about €1.30 per person. Do you honestly think that is defendable as a policy  ? 

In the meantime the Johnson Govt have just slashed the international aid budget so it looks like Brexiteers don't give a fuck about sub Saharan Africa or farm subsidies unless they own a farm, of course

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9 minutes ago, mattyq said:

In the meantime the Johnson Govt have just slashed the international aid budget so it looks like Brexiteers don't give a fuck about sub Saharan Africa or farm subsidies unless they own a farm, of course

Yeah of course 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

One of the first things the Government   did post leaving the EU was to scrap the single farm payment. Even a right wing Tory government with an 80 seat majority couldn’t justify paying billions to rich landowners just becuase they owned a farm. Meanwhile the EU keeps writing the cheques. 

Yeah, that's interesting, seeing as they spend approx £3 Billion on subsidising the farmers

This Government fucks up everything it touches but one thing it is very efficient at is funnelling huge amounts of public cash to their cronies and backers

But Africa...

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Hahahah. The context helps make my point not hinder it. So… what about the first quote? Exactly as expected. Exactly as expected. There is no point taking to you because even when it’s clear and right in front of you, you either ignore it or don’t admit it. 

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I think it's absolutely nailed on that the EU has been a force for peace and stability in Europe since it's inception

I don't think the UK leaving the EU is going to make it more likely we will go to war with an EU member although I wouldn't put it past Johnson playing with gunboats in the Channel or around Gib as he's a stupid cunt

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3 minutes ago, mattyq said:

I think it's absolutely nailed on that the EU has been a force for peace and stability in Europe since it's inception

I don't think the UK leaving the EU is going to make it more likely we will go to war with an EU member although I wouldn't put it past Johnson playing with gunboats in the Channel or around Gib as he's a stupid cunt

Yep, for sure. Honestly, I’m bored of this entire thing. It’s an argument that has no relevance. We’ve left, we need to get on with making the best of it. 

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13 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yep, for sure. Honestly, I’m bored of this entire thing. It’s an argument that has no relevance. We’ve left, we need to get on with making the best of it. 

No, we need to revolt and get it overturned because it was all based on lies and racism 

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1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

Yes lies. I’ve not clicked on that link but are you disputing it? 

No I'm not but the link proves the lies we're from both camps and as Osborne was the then Chancellor so his words possessed more gravitas.

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21 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yep, for sure. Honestly, I’m bored of this entire thing. It’s an argument that has no relevance. We’ve left, we need to get on with making the best of it. 

Well, I sort of agree but then I think there;s no way that's going to happen with this shitstain of a Government we have 

Then I think the referendum was lost 5 years ago and this argument is still going on and there's a reason for that... even with the best Govt in the world making the most of deliberately cutting yourself off from the largest market in the world is going to be incredibly hard

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17 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

No, we need to revolt and get it overturned because it was all based on lies and racism 

Fingers crossed, but I just don't see it. And the thing is, the public seem to be even more in favour of it now than then. I fear it's a losing battle on this one. I was talking to one of my German mates about this, and he's quite a forceful guy when it comes to letting his view on the UK leaving the EU be known, and I had to agree with pretty much everything he said except that the reality is that the benefits - and of course, there are some - are being trumpeted and it's working. I just can't see a return. He wants to see a United Stated of Europe lead by Germany... so, ya know, I'm not sure 'bout that one either.

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4 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Fingers crossed, but I just don't see it. And the thing is, the public seem to be even more in favour of it now than then. I fear it's a losing battle on this one. I was talking to one of my German mates about this, and he's quite a forceful guy when it comes to letting his view on the UK leaving the EU be known, and I had to agree with pretty much everything he said except that the reality is that the benefits - and of course, there are some - are being trumpeted and it's working. I just can't see a return. He wants to see a United Stated of Europe lead by Germany... so, ya know, I'm not sure 'bout that one either.

Both the Tory and Labour Party campaigned to stay in the EU before the referendum.The position of both parties are now the complete opposite, neither main party would campaign to rejoin the European Union so the vote would in all probability be even more in favour of leave this time around. 

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Surely the question would be, would the EU have the UK back? 

 

The amount of hoops we'd have to jump through makes it a near impossibility in the short to medium term. Post-Johnson would we even qualify with the economy possibly not in any shape to meet the criteria?

 

So who gives a toss how leave voters would vote, they won't even have the opportunity.

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