Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Bruce Spanner]

11 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

There is (apparently) between 50-100k gap of HGV drivers.

That’s one of my biggest gripes about the whole thing.

 

Democratically we voted leave, you can argue about shenanigans until the cows come home, but that was the outcome and they must have known that these simple things would be immediate issues, but they have done nothing to mitigate against it.

 

We’ve had five years now and simple things like this and more border control agents and more apprenticeship avenues to start plugging shortfalls etc. haven't even been thought about.

 

Simple practicalities like food import are besiged with problems because no attention has been paid to them on a practicle day to day level.

 

Travel etc, just not thought about.

 

Just an amazing lack of foresight or impetus to actually see how it was going to pan out and try and be post Brexit ready, which we clearly aren’t.  

[Jairzinho]

9 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Just an amazing lack of foresight or impetus to actually see how it was going to pan out and try and be post Brexit ready, which we clearly aren’t.  

You seem to be suggesting they're arsed though. 

 

 

[Bruce Spanner]

Just now, Jairzinho said:

You seem to be suggesting they're arsed though. 

 

 

 

Oh, I understand I'm giving them too much credit already, but fuckig hell, come on, this is the simple stuff.

 

We could have had it figured out over a glass of Rioja, or three, in about an hour.

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

There is (apparently) between 50-100k gap of HGV drivers.

So great news if you're a HGV driver or a young person thinking of becoming an HGV driver then.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Bruce Spanner said:

That’s one of my biggest gripes about the whole thing.

 

Democratically we voted leave, you can argue about shenanigans until the cows come home, but that was the outcome and they must have known that these simple things would be immediate issues, but they have done nothing to mitigate against it.

 

We’ve had five years now and simple things like this and more border control agents and more apprenticeship avenues to start plugging shortfalls etc. haven't even been thought about.

 

Simple practicalities like food import are besiged with problems because no attention has been paid to them on a practicle day to day level.

 

Travel etc, just not thought about.

 

Just an amazing lack of foresight or impetus to actually see how it was going to pan out and try and be post Brexit ready, which we clearly aren’t.  

The people who tried different ways to make this shitshow work were shouted down and voted down by dopes with party political agendas - in the Tory Party, by the ERG and the Court of King Boris; in Labour, by the "anyone but Corbyn" cult. 

 

Intra-party bickering was more important than doing the right thing for the country. 

[Section_31]

Was thinking the other day about this, do you reckon the Afghan and Iraq wars helped sow the seeds for Brexit?

 

Society seemed to start to change around then in terms of how people viewed the flag and the military. The Poppy became a symbol - if you don't wear it you're a traitor. 

 

Remembrance day became a military parade. All talk of "our boys" became divisive, you were either with them - and a proper Brit - or you were against them, and a scumbag (possibly a prototype woke vegan tree hugger like we have today). A lot of the right wing press also became more emboldened in calling out "the other" too. 

 

That era also seemed to mark the beginning of the end for Labour in power, but that is often put down to a backlash against Blair taking us to war, but I wondered if the opposite is in fact true, that it shifted the working class to the right  - and the establishment and media learned how to weaponise that fact.

[Pureblood]

45 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Was thinking the other day about this, do you reckon the Afghan and Iraq wars helped sow the seeds for Brexit?

 

Society seemed to start to change around then in terms of how people viewed the flag and the military. The Poppy became a symbol - if you don't wear it you're a traitor. 

 

Remembrance day became a military parade. All talk of "our boys" became divisive, you were either with them - and a proper Brit - or you were against them, and a scumbag (possibly a prototype woke vegan tree hugger like we have today). A lot of the right wing press also became more emboldened in calling out "the other" too. 

 

That era also seemed to mark the beginning of the end for Labour in power, but that is often put down to a backlash against Blair taking us to war, but I wondered if the opposite is in fact true, that it shifted the working class to the right  - and the establishment and media learned how to weaponise that fact.

Yes, I think it can all be traced back to 9/11 and foreign policy arising therefrom. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Here's a decent summary of the multiple, interacting factors that influence wage rates.

 

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Competitive_markets/The_labour_market.html

 

In short - you can't just assume that a shortage of labour (whether that's caused by Covid or Brexit or a combination of both) is going to automatically result in higher wages.

[Section_31]

17 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Here's a decent summary of the multiple, interacting factors that influence wage rates.

 

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Competitive_markets/The_labour_market.html

 

In short - you can't just assume that a shortage of labour (whether that's caused by Covid or Brexit or a combination of both) is going to automatically result in higher wages.

 

Agreed, it "should" though. Was talking to a dairy farmer a couple of years back though work, and, don't know if he was bullshitting, but he reckoned Morrisons used to ask to look through his books before deciding what to pay him. If that's true, that shows you what you're up against when it comes to farm labour. 

[Gnasher]

40 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Here's a decent summary of the multiple, interacting factors that influence wage rates.

 

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Competitive_markets/The_labour_market.html

 

In short - you can't just assume that a shortage of labour (whether that's caused by Covid or Brexit or a combination of both) is going to automatically result in higher wages.

I take it you're one of the more fortunate people who has never been on the receiving end of the phrases " if you don't like it plenty more where you came from" or so and so professions are ten a penny  etc...

 

[Gnasher]

45 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Here's a decent summary of the multiple, interacting factors that influence wage rates.

 

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Competitive_markets/The_labour_market.html

 

In short - you can't just assume that a shortage of labour (whether that's caused by Covid or Brexit or a combination of both) is going to automatically result in higher wages.

I can assume because it's the truth and it's happening across the country as we speak..

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

So great news if you're a HGV driver or a young person thinking of becoming an HGV driver then.

Especially because we're now free of pesky Eurocrats, so British drivers can drive for longer.

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/eu-rules

 

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

12 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I can assume because it's the truth and it's happening across the country as we speak..

No it isn't. We've been through this.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

16 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I take it you're one of the more fortunate people who has never been on the receiving end of the phrases " if you don't like it plenty more where you came from" or so and so professions are ten a penny  etc...

 

Do you think I'm not aware that workers get the shitty end of the stick? What the Hell do you think I've been going on about in this thread for over 5 years?

 

You seem to think that, now we've driven the foreigners away, workers will magically have the upper hand. Bad news; we won't.   Brexit is just another weapon for exploitative bosses and bastard Tories to attack us with. 

[Bruce Spanner]

The level of unemployment is currently -500,000 of where we were at the start of the pandemic, despite people celebrating small increases towards employment as if it isn't just glossing over the hard facts.

 

Furlough will be ending soon, small buisness will have to think about if they should take another loan or fold, self employment has been decimated.

 

The picture is fucking bleak apart from some low skilled, low waged jobs that have arisen because low skilled low waged migrant labour has had to leave. The service sector will recover as its more open to reconfiguration, but manufacturing was lost to the wind many moons ago.

 

Apprenticeship figures are a joke as level 2 (school leaver level) have seen their numbers plumet by around 50% since 2016, with a promise to increase in the future, as firms are asked to pay a significant amount of money to partake. The vast majority of apprenticeships are in the civil sector and business' sector (post degree level) as companies use these to drive down costs against expenditure. A hell of a lot of smoke and mirrors involved with the numbers. Kids on the council estates are worse served now than for at least a decade. 

 

Brexit, like it or loath it,  and those that supported it and are part of it's fallout should have seen that we were heading to a real skills gap, but instead they are going to push ahead with even more regressive policies in education that will further erode opportunity for those kids.

 

If the Brexit dividend is that the only jobs, or training, are low skilled, low waged, then the Brexit we feared is happening.

 

For context to the above...

 

‘The latest figures, released by the Department for Education, highlight how spending on apprenticeships has shifted from lower level, school leaver training to higher level degree and postgraduate programmes, which the levy allows employers to fund.

Of the 375,800 apprenticeships started in the 2017/18 academic year, 4,500 were at level seven, which covers postgraduate courses such as MBA degrees, compared with 30 in the 2015/16 academic year.

 

During the same period, the number of level two apprenticeships, equivalent to GCSEs, fell from 291,330 to 161,390.

 

A critical report of the levy system by the National Audit Office, parliament’s spending watchdog, earlier in March highlighted the concerns about the long-term sustainability of the system, particularly if employers spend increasing amounts on higher level MBA-style training programmes.

 

The latest figures show that higher level apprenticeships are more prevalent in the public sector, especially in the civil service, where 30.5 per cent of starts were at a level equivalent to a foundation degree or higher.

The latest figures were welcomed by Anne Milton, the apprenticeships and skills minister, who claimed that the scheme was now making “good and steady progress” almost two years after its introduction. 

 

“Apprenticeships are now longer [and] higher quality, with more off-the-job training and provide for a proper assessment at the end,” she said. 

 

However, Mike Cherry, national chairman of the Federation of Small Businesses, warned that the system made it very difficult for his members to add new apprentices.

 

“Apprenticeship starts are still worryingly low, compared to pre-reform levels and there are clear signs that small businesses are starting to disengage with the system,” he said.’

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/a3000176-5144-11e9-b401-8d9ef1626294

 

[Bruce Spanner]

.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

So great news if you're a HGV driver or a young person thinking of becoming an HGV driver then.

Well not really. HGV drivers cover the filled roles already and young people don’t want to be a HGV driver. 

[Gnasher]

31 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Well not really. HGV drivers cover the filled roles already and young people don’t want to be a HGV driver. 

I don't know I don't speak for young people but some might now, plenty of work.

[Bjornebye]

6 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

That’s one of my biggest gripes about the whole thing.

 

Democratically we voted leave, you can argue about shenanigans until the cows come home, but that was the outcome and they must have known that these simple things would be immediate issues, but they have done nothing to mitigate against it.

 

We’ve had five years now and simple things like this and more border control agents and more apprenticeship avenues to start plugging shortfalls etc. haven't even been thought about.

 

Simple practicalities like food import are besiged with problems because no attention has been paid to them on a practicle day to day level.

 

Travel etc, just not thought about.

 

Just an amazing lack of foresight or impetus to actually see how it was going to pan out and try and be post Brexit ready, which we clearly aren’t.  

There was fuck all democratic about the Brexit referendum. They didn’t flood the news and papers with the nuances they flooded it with the migrant crisis and lies on the side of a bus and even then it was only a 2% swing. The biggest swindle ever and thick gammon twats fell for it hook line and sinker. There is fuck all good to come from Brexit and all this pandemic has done is delay the downfall and give this gang of cunts and get out excuse when it all goes to the fucking wall. Fuck Brexit and fuck anyone who voted for it because they didn’t know what they were voting for other than “get em out” 

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

There was fuck all democratic about the Brexit referendum. They didn’t flood the news and papers with the nuances they flooded it with the migrant crisis and lies on the side of a bus and even then it was only a 2% swing. The biggest swindle ever and thick gammon twats fell for it hook line and sinker. There is fuck all good to come from Brexit and all this pandemic has done is delay the downfall and give this gang of cunts and get out excuse when it all goes to the fucking wall. Fuck Brexit and fuck anyone who voted for it because they didn’t know what they were voting for other than “get em out” 

Bricklayers in Liverpool have just got a 10% rise in pay, as have most of the 3 million construction workers throughout the country, first pay rise for many a year, don't they count? Or is it just the landowners we are allowed to be concerned about?

 

http://www.infrastructure-intelligence.com/article/feb-2021/citb-finds-jobs-boost-british-workers-post-brexit-construction

[Bjornebye]

14 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Bricklayers in Liverpool have just got a 10% rise in pay, as have most of the 3 million construction workers throughout the country, first pay rise for many a year, don't they count? Or is it just the landowners we are allowed to be concerned about?

 

http://www.infrastructure-intelligence.com/article/feb-2021/citb-finds-jobs-boost-british-workers-post-brexit-construction

You are absolutely off your barnet 

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

You are absolutely off your barnet 

Then so is Paul Mason Channel 4

 

 

 

 

[Bjornebye]

7 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Then so is Paul Mason Channel 4

 

 

 

 

Is that the most capitalist front page ever? 

[Gnasher]

4 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Is that the most capitalist front page ever? 

Yep and they are worried to death the pool of cheap Labour has come to an end.

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Yep and they are worried to death the pool of cheap Labour has come to an end.

The cost of that watch could pay the annual salary of a retail worker