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Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

307 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      250
    • No
      57


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25 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

You say workers but in today's real world the term worker could and does mean anything. A person on a full contract with pension etc is a million miles away from a modern day slave working on a building site for payment below the minimum wage. 

 

EU immigration has always been a class issue, ie the better off gain the poorest lose, that's in the official reports which I've published numerous times. For example approx half a million Polish workers came to Brìtain in a ten year period, thr figures show less than a thousand went to Poland. Whilst immigration improves the economy as a whole and the wealthy in particular it's the working class and poor that suffer due to the suppression of wages and working conditions.

 

A couple of years old but a fair summary

 

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/labour-should-not-be-the-champion-of-eu-free-movement/

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7 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Gnasher - Genuine question, do you still think Brexit is a good idea? 

No but I can fully understand the reasons a lot of the poor/working class voted leave and I sympathise and agree with their concerns. They were the forgotten bloc for far too long, they sacrificed the benefits of free movement so others could make cheap money. It's not the builders from Barnsley or Scaffolders from Scunthorpe who have fucked up this country, most have never voted in a tory mp in three generations; they do not deserve scorn.

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59 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

You say workers but in today's real world the term worker could and does mean anything. A person on a full contract with pension etc is a million miles away from a modern day slave working on a building site for payment below the minimum wage. 

So, give them equal rights and close the gap.

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1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

You say workers but in today's real world the term worker could and does mean anything. A person on a full contract with pension etc is a million miles away from a modern day slave working on a building site for payment below the minimum wage. 

 

EU immigration has always been a class issue, ie the better off gain the poorest lose, that's in the official reports which I've published numerous times. For example approx half a million Polish workers came to Brìtain in a ten year period, thr figures show less than a thousand went to Poland. Whilst immigration improves the economy as a whole and the wealthy in particular it's the working class and poor that suffer due to the suppression of wages and working conditions.

As I've pointed out every time you post that link, domestic workers only get undercut by migrant workers because the migrants have fewer rights.  (That is the choice of the UK Government, not the EU. ) Level the rights up and the problem disappears. Strip migrants of the right to work and they don’t vanish, they just end up in genuine conditions of slavery. 

 

We're getting back to the question you never answer: how do you propose to improve workers' rights by taking rights away from workers?

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3 hours ago, Denny Crane said:

There was a lot of talk on here about this in the past. No evidence found.

 

 

 

 

"How does the  jury find Cambridge Analytica - Evil or Shit?"

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13 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

"How does the  jury find Cambridge Analytica - Evil or Shit?"

Some of the stuff i saw came across as QAnon for remaniacs at times.

 

There is a story there but in this case it  looks like it was basic data mining. Shame there was such a focus on this story and not some of the misinformation the tabloids pumped out. 

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Liam Fox is a fucking empty biscuit tin. My only hope is he fucks off and then fucks off from there and keeps fucking off until his second death when he's remembered for the very last time.

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1 minute ago, Anubis said:

Is British a blood type?

 

qwfDjAw.jpg

Wonder has anyone told him that's an Irish actor in his avi yet?

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'First published in 1997, shortly before New Labour won the first of our three election victories, it is called The Sovereign Individual, and is subtitled Mastering the Transition to the Information Age.It is the product of very large brainpower, sweeps far and wide in historical research and current analysis, but its strength, especially reading it today, lies in the force of its predictions about the new millennium.

 

There is so much to digest in it that I intend to return to it next week, but for now I offer you a few highlights.

It is prefaced by a quote by Tom Stoppard, from Arcadia. ‘The future is disorder. A door like this has cracked open five or six times since we got up on our hind legs. It is the best possible time to be alive, when almost everything you thought you knew is wrong.’

 

The driving theme of this book is the information revolution, ‘the most sweeping in history’, liberating individuals at the expense of the 20thcentury nation-state. Indeed, the authors argue that microprocessing will subvert and destroy the nation state, creating new forms of social organisation in the process. It will be faster than any previous revolution, and not without pain.

 

The ‘Sovereign Individuals’ who will gain most from this liberation are ‘the brightest, most successful and ambitious’ among us, ‘those who can educate and motivate themselves …. Genius will be unleashed, freed from both the oppression of government and the drags of racial and ethnic prejudice.’

 

In this bright new world, government is but a drag on ambition and success, welfare something the rich are forced to fund for the less bright, successful and ambitious. Real success, they argue, will be measured not just by how many zeroes you can add to your net worth, but whether you can structure your affairs in a way that enables you to realise your full autonomy and independence. … autonomous of government, independent of communal responsibility. ‘Persons of even quite modest means will soar as the gravitational pull of politics on the global economy weakens. Unprecedented financial independence will be a reachable goal in your lifetime or that of your children.’

 

The Sovereign Individuals, this vision of wonder goes on, will compete and interact on terms that echo the relations among the gods in Greek myth. ‘The elusive Mount Olympus of the next Millennium will be in cyberspace.’ Some will be as rich as Bill Gates. The ‘cyberpoor’ will be those with an income of less than $200,000 a year. But here is what Sovereign Individuals can really like about cyberspace – there will be no cyberwelfare, no cybertaxes and no cybergovernment. ‘The good news is that politicians will no more be able to dominate, suppress and regulate the greater part of commerce in this new realm than the legislators of the ancient Greek city-states could have trimmed the beard of Zeus.’

 

Government is constantly equated with organised crime, Bill Clinton portrayed as something akin to a gangster, but this change, they argue, will force governments to do less, and do what they still do according to the values of the market.  Governments will have to treat people like customers, ‘and less in a way that organised criminals treat the victims of a shakedown racket…  First in scores, then in hundreds, and ultimately in the millions, individuals will escape the shackles of politics.’

 

As the modern nation-state ‘decomposes’, we are warned that ‘latter-day barbarians like the Russian mafia, other ethnic criminal gangs, drug lords, and renegade covert agencies will be laws unto themselves. ‘They already are.’ But Sovereign Individuals of the Information Age, like the ancient gods, will enjoy a kind of ‘diplomatic immunity’ from political decisions affecting mere mortals. Meanwhile, the capacity of nation-states to raise money for redistribution will collapse, and ‘the information aristocracy’ will move their wealth to wherever they are least troubled by politicians, whose capacity for taxing will fall by 50-70 percent.

 

Now we are at the heart of the argument. ‘Transactions on the Internet or the World Wide Web can be encrypted and will soon be almost impossible for tax collectors to capture. Tax-free money already compounds far faster offshore than onshore funds still subject to the high tax burden imposed by the twentieth-century nation-state. After the turn of the millennium, much of the world’s commerce will migrate into the new realm of cyberspace, a region where governments will have no more dominion than they exercise over the bottom of the sea or the outer planets. …  Cyberspace is the ultimate offshore jurisdiction. An economy with no taxes. Bermuda in the sky with diamonds. When this greatest tax haven of them all is fully open for business, all funds will essentially be offshore funds at the discretion of their owner. The state has grown used to treating its taxpayers as a farmer treats his cows, keeping them in a field to be milked. Soon, the cows will have wings. Like an angry farmer, the state will no doubt take desperate measures at first to tether and hobble its escaping herd. It will employ covert and even violent means to restrict access to liberating technologies. Such expedients will work only temporarily, if at all. The twentieth-century nation-state, with all its pretensions, will starve to death as its tax revenues decline.’

 

Cybercurrencies will deliver monetary independence to individuals. Governments’ ability to control money by printing it will be transcended, the authors say – this is 1997 remember – by mathematical algorithms that have no physical existence…. ‘Only the poor will be victims of inflation.’

 

The book is written somewhat in the manner of a memo to investors. ‘A series of transition crises lies ahead … We expect it to be a time of great danger and great reward … Increasingly autonomous individuals and bankrupt, desperate governments will confront one another across a new divide. We expect to see a radical restructuring of the nature of sovereignty and the virtual death of politics before the transition is over. Instead of state domination and control of resources, you are destined to see the privatisation of almost all services governments now provide.’

 

Privatisation of services heralds ‘the ultimate form of privatisation – the sweeping denationalisation of the individual.’ The Sovereign Individual will not be the asset of any state, nor even a citizen, but a customer of competing jurisdictions. Once sovereignty is commercialised, people will choose their jurisdictions, much as they now choose their insurance companies or their religions. Jurisdictions that fail to deliver will face bankruptcy and liquidation, ‘just as incompetent commercial enterprises or failed religious congregations do.’

 

The authors’ hatred of welfare could not be clearer. It marks a welfare state up against out and out Communism, but very much down against ‘a genuine laissez-faire enclave like colonial Hong Kong.’

And how is this for a radical right-wing view of public services, in which the idea of co-operative pooling of resources for common good like roads and hospitals is clearly anathema? ‘If you went into a store to buy furniture, and the salespeople took your money but then proceeded to ignore your requests and consult others about how to spend your money, you would quite rightly be upset. You would not think it normal or justifiable if the employees of the store argued that you really did not deserve the furniture, and that it should be shipped instead to someone whom they found more worthy. The fact that something very like this happens in dealings with government shows how little control the “customers” actually have.’

 

Fear not though, oh Sovereign Individual, for all your transactions will occur not only over the Net, but outside the jurisdictions of nation-states. ‘Payment will be rendered in cybercurrency. Profits will be booked in cyberbanks. Investments will be made in cyberbrokages. Many transactions will not be subject to taxation…. Extraterritorial regulatory power will collapse….  Control over money will migrate from the halls of power to the global marketplace. Any individual or firm with access to cyberspace will be able to easily shift out of any currency that appears in danger of depreciation. Unlike today, there will be no necessity to deal in legal tender.’

 

There will, it is admitted, be ‘left-behinds,’ and they will become ‘increasingly jingoistic and unpleasant’ as the impact of information technology grows. There will be a backlash, and it could well turn violent. Social peace will be in jeopardy, especially in America and Europe. ‘The more psychopathic of these unhappy souls’ will strike out against anyone with more prosperity. The rich and immigrants will be most at risk. ‘A furious nationalist reaction will sweep the world,’ we are told. Part of this will be Luddite anti-technology rebellions.

 

‘One of the crucial challenges of the great transformation ahead will be maintaining order in the face of escalating violence, or alternatively escaping its brunt… It is difficult to guess at precisely what point the reaction will turn ugly. Our guess is that the recriminations will intensify when Western nations begin to unambiguously crack apart in the manner of the former Soviet Union.’ Again, though, Sovereign Individuals must not fear, because ‘every time a nation-state cracks up, it will facilitate further devolution and encourage the autonomy of Sovereign Individuals.  We expect to see a significant multiplication of sovereign entities, as scores of enclaves and jurisdictions more akin to city-states emerge from the rubble of nations.’

 

The rubble of nations eh? In case we haven’t got the message over four hundred pages, we are given a final summarising reminder. ‘The argument of this book clearly informs the decision to redeploy your capital, if you have any. Citizenship is obsolete. To optimise your lifetime earnings and become a Sovereign Individual you will need to become a customer of a government or protection service rather than a citizen. Instead of paying whatever tax burden is imposed upon you by grasping politicians, you will be better positioned to prosper in the Information Age by freeing yourself to negotiate a private tax treaty that obliges you to pay no more for services of government than they are actually worth to you.’

 

There you go. Quite a vision. It is about as free market a view of the world as you could imagine, fiercely anti politics, with democracy itself called into question. So why, you are wondering, have I subjected you to this profoundly right-wing, anti-state, anti-welfare, anti-rules worldview, most of which fills me with fear and loathing? And why was my man at Marylebone so keen that I read this co-authored tome? Not because of the identity of the first author, American James Dale Davidson. But because of the second, Lord William Rees-Mogg, father of Jacob.

 

Of course Rees-Mogg Jr may not share every part of the Rees-Mogg Sr worldview. But we know from his own mouth that he shares much of it, and reading The Sovereign Individual, it is easy to see why he so loves Brexit, and the chaos and disorder, and opportunities for disaster capitalism and super-elitism, that it may provide. At least his father was honest in his depiction of that vision – the commercialisation of sovereignty, Bermuda in the sky with diamonds – as a good one for people of wealth who can put their assets wherever they like, so that taxes and inflation are for the ‘left-behinds’ not the Sovereign Individuals born to rule, but freed from all rules themselves. Lord Mogg would be very proud of his son’s role in trying to get Britain to the hardest Brexit of all, whatever the impact on the ‘left-behinds’ whose votes were just a necessary support on the journey, but whose needs will be forgotten as soon as the vision of Bermuda in the sky with diamonds is upon us.'

 

A review of The Sovereign Individual, Mastering the Transition to the Information Age by Alastair Campbell. By  James Dale Davidson & Lord William Rees-Mogg 1997

 

I know Campbell isn't universally loved, but I thought this was interesting nonetheless.

 

Puts Brexit and the new world disorder in to perspective and context.

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2 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

What an insane country this is.

Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together

I wish smilies were permitted. 

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6 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

What an insane country this is.

Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together

You can't put a price on freedom. Although, obviously, British people have less now.

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16 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

You can't put a price on freedom. Although, obviously, British people have less now.

Least we stopped modern slavery though. 

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2 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Oh, yeah. Forgot about. 

 

Three cheers for Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Jolly good show, old bean. Hwat hwat. 

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'But, for whatever reason, it’s clear from the summit that after 45 years of membership, they are not willing, unless there’s some fundamental change of approach, to offer this country, the same terms as Canada.

 

And so with high hearts and with complete confidence, we will prepare to embrace the alternative and we will prosper mightily as an independent free trading nation controlling our own borders, our fisheries and setting our own laws.'

 

Say's the man clutching a hand of cards during a chess game.

 

Well done all.

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