Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Gnasher]

8 minutes ago, PestiRed said:

There are some shortages of computer chips and construction materials over here but we are managing to fill the all the supermarket shelves with food, petrol stations with fuel and we have enough gas stored to see us through the winter

 

So if you’re not building something or need to buy a car or something similar then there are zero effects to these shortages - which appears to be significantly different to the UK’s situation 

 

The petrol shortages over here were only for a very short period yet some lost their shit, to the tune of yellow submarine, 'we all live in a Daily Mail world'. The petrol shortages were due to lack of drivers not lack of petrol so the simple answer is to recruit more drivers and pay more money, something our government should have thought about three years ago. 

 

We build little in this country, it's another own goal the Labour Party turns it's nose up at.When they can rouse themselves to go on the pitch Labour Party supporters seem determined to aim the ball at the wrong goal, it's partly why they'll take another thumping at the next election.

[TD_LFC]

4 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I don't really subscribe to the 'ahh let's not bother with wage rises as they'll only be temporary" brigade

Neither do I, for the immediate future of a person benefitting then a pay rise is a pay rise.

 

But I'm not naive enough to see this as a Brexit win when we know full well that it's all a face saving exercise, they aren't looking to take a knife to Human and Workers rights for nothing and it isn't to give people a short term pay boost.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

49 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

I don't really subscribe to the 'ahh let's not bother with wage rises as they'll only be temporary" brigade, it's a right wing argument to fudge the issue. Haulage/agricultural etc workers have been underpaid for yonks.

Nobody is saying "let's not bother".

 

I'm saying "let's not pretend that the sunlit Uplands are here, just like good old Boris and Govey promised."

 

Big difference.

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nobody is saying "let's not bother".

 

I'm saying "let's not pretend that the sunlit Uplands are here, just like good old Boris and Govey promised."

 

Big difference.

OK but let's not pretend Brexit hasn't contributed to wage rises and vacancies in certain low paid sectors because it makes the person look like a flat earther.

 

The worry about workers rights being diminished as TD says in the post above (and you have said many times) is real, correct and worrying. My argument is we (people who hate tories) can't now veiw Brexit as the binary choice it was fed during the referendum. We've imo got to acknowledge the plus parts of leaving and hammer the bad parts, and hold the tories to account on their empty promises of wage rises and protection of workers rights.

[Gnasher]

Here we go, the lazy brits, stop their dole narrative. I  havnt read the whole article, only the snippet on offer for free but I think I get posh girls drift. 

 

Other articles by same journo 'I spent an hour and learnt to drive an articulated lorry in an empty car park, piece of piss"... "I had to spend a full afternoon on Universal Credit, its really not that bad".... "had a whole day working on a building site and spent 8 hours sunbathing on the scaffolding" 

 

 

 

 

[TD_LFC]

Framing it as 'wages rising sharply but farmers struggle to find staff' seems a little arse about face.

 

It suggests that the wage rises were independent of, rather than a result of, staff shortages. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

11 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Here we go, the lazy brits, stop their dole narrative. I  havnt read the whole article, only the snippet on offer for free but I think I get posh girls drift. 

 

Other articles by same journo 'I spent an hour and learnt to drive an articulated lorry in an empty car park, piece of piss"... "I had to spend a full afternoon on Universal Credit, its really not that bad".... "had a whole day working on a building site and spent 8 hours sunbathing on the scaffolding" 

 

 

 

 

I remember Top Gear doing a similar thing about filling potholes. To prove how quick and easy it should be, they turned up and did a rushed bodge job, which wouldn't last past the first decent rain shower, thereby unintentionally proving that it takes time to do it safely and properly.

[Gnasher]

Brexit strikes again,

 

 

[skend04]

9 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Brexit strikes again,

 

 

Any empty of food shelves in the EU?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

38 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I remember Top Gear doing a similar thing about filling potholes. To prove how quick and easy it should be, they turned up and did a rushed bodge job, which wouldn't last past the first decent rain shower, thereby unintentionally proving that it takes time to do it safely and properly.

You’re Joe Anderson’s Tarmacing lad and I claim my £5.

 

 

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Any empty of food shelves in the EU?

As many countries within the EU are also suffering from a driver shortage, possibly.

 

Whilst we're on the subject of how great things are in the EU compered to here, whilst we are experiencing low unemployment and hugh job vacancies, the youth unemployment rate in Spain is a mind blowing 40%. Italy is similar.

 

https://www.iru.org/resources/newsroom/spain-lowers-minimum-driver-age-18-attract-next-generation-drivers

[skend04]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

As many countries within the EU are also suffering from a driver shortage, possibly.

 

Whilst we're on the subject of how great things are in the EU compered to here, whilst we are experiencing low unemployment and hugh job vacancies, the youth unemployment rate in Spain is a mind blowing 40%. Italy is similar.

 

https://www.iru.org/resources/newsroom/spain-lowers-minimum-driver-age-18-attract-next-generation-drivers

So the answer is no.

 

No need for your whataboutery. A no would have sufficed.

 

But in any case, a simple check would have shown that if in education in the UK, the government doesn't count under 18s as unemployed whereas I believe Spain do. If we did, no doubt the numbers would be higher here too.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

33 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Brexit strikes again,

 

 

 

21 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

That's the trouble with the binary, black or white nature of discourse in this country (and others) over the last few years. Truth is always far more nuanced than shouty rhetoric.

 

Obviously, anyone who says this is entirely about Brexit is wrong.

Obviously, anyone who says this is nothing to do with Brexit is wrong.

 

So John Cleese's tweet proves the square root of fuck all. Of course problems (mostly attributable to Covid) are internationally widespread, but Brexit harms the UK's ability to cope with them.

.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

As many countries within the EU are also suffering from a driver shortage, possibly.

 

Whilst we're on the subject of how great things are in the EU compered to here, whilst we are experiencing low unemployment and hugh job vacancies, the youth unemployment rate in Spain is a mind blowing 40%. Italy is similar.

 

https://www.iru.org/resources/newsroom/spain-lowers-minimum-driver-age-18-attract-next-generation-drivers

As mentioned before, Spain is short of about 15,000 drivers; the UK is short of 100,000. Only Poland (140,000) is having a worse time than the UK (largely because many Polish drivers are working abroad, for better pay and conditions). The next worse off - Germany and France - have shortfalls of about 40-50,000.

 

You can't pretend that all countries are equally struggling. Brexit is obviously making this worse for the UK.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Here we go, the lazy brits, stop their dole narrative. I  havnt read the whole article, only the snippet on offer for free but I think I get posh girls drift. 

 

Other articles by same journo 'I spent an hour and learnt to drive an articulated lorry in an empty car park, piece of piss"... "I had to spend a full afternoon on Universal Credit, its really not that bad".... "had a whole day working on a building site and spent 8 hours sunbathing on the scaffolding" 

 

 

 

 

This is from a pro-Brexit paper. One might be tempted to think that they didn't actually have British workers' best interests at heart, after all.

[Gnasher]

12 minutes ago, skend04 said:

So the answer is no.

 

No need for your whataboutery. A no would have sufficed.

 

But in any case, a simple check would have shown that if in education in the UK, the government doesn't count under 18s as unemployed whereas I believe Spain do. If we did, no doubt the numbers would be higher here too.

 

3 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

As mentioned before, Spain is short of about 15,000 drivers; the UK is short of 100,000. Only Poland (140,000) is having a worse time than the UK (largely because many Polish drivers are working abroad, for better pay and conditions). The next worse off - Germany and France - have shortfalls of about 40-50,000.

 

You can't pretend that all countries are equally struggling. Brexit is obviously making this worse for the UK.

I agree with your figures and I agree with the shortfalls and I agree brexit is a major or the major issue with driver/labour shortages.

 

Here's where I disagree, why is it worse? Why are labour shortages be it in haulage or hospitality or agriculture such a bad thing? Because of a few shortages on the shelves?  Oh come on get a grip, the petrol crises was over in the blink of an eye and people were losing their minds. You remember the winter of discontent? Three day week? Three million unemployed, etc. These labour shortages are putting wages on the front page, where they should be, if it brings a little pain (as also experienced in the States) sorry, fucking tough tittie.

 

Anyway must dash waitroes is short on asparagus.

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

This is from a pro-Brexit paper. One might be tempted to think that they didn't actually have British workers' best interests at heart, after all.

Who said the Telegraph had workers at heart? Not me, I've lived through the lazy brit narrative before, remember Osborne and the Brits staying home with the blinds closed? I've also lived through the lazy migrant nonsense, the papers take it in turns on who to attack and they attack any worker with new found power 

[Gnasher]

39 minutes ago, skend04 said:

So the answer is no.

 

No the answer is yes;

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/covid-19-crisis-has-lead-food-crisis-says-italys-draghi-2021-07-26/

39 minutes ago, skend04 said:

No need for your whataboutery. A no would have sufficed.

 

But in any case, a simple check would have shown that if in education in the UK, the government doesn't count under 18s as unemployed whereas I believe Spain do. If we did, no doubt the numbers would be higher here too.

 

Our youth unemployment rates are nowhere near as bad as Spain and Italy however much lipstick you apply.

[skend04]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

 

No the answer is yes;

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/covid-19-crisis-has-lead-food-crisis-says-italys-draghi-2021-07-26/

 

Our youth unemployment rates are nowhere near as bad as Spain and Italy however much lipstick you apply.

Not read it have you. You've just Googled something and pasted a link. 

[No2]

Gnasher that's embarrassing, even for you. I encourage everyone to read the link he shared.

 

*spoiler, Italians aren't going hungry. 

[Gnasher]

Britain is not going hungry, the shortages are nothing worth talking about.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

32 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

I agree with your figures and I agree with the shortfalls and I agree brexit is a major or the major issue with driver/labour shortages.

 

Here's where I disagree, why is it worse? Why are labour shortages be it in haulage or hospitality or agriculture such a bad thing? Because of a few shortages on the shelves?  Oh come on get a grip, the petrol crises was over in the blink of an eye and people were losing their minds. You remember the winter of discontent? Three day week? Three million unemployed, etc. These labour shortages are putting wages on the front page, where they should be, if it brings a little pain (as also experienced in the States) sorry, fucking tough tittie.

 

Anyway must dash waitroes is short on asparagus.

If you believe (as you seem to do) that the Government & employers will respond to the current shortages by saying "OK, it's a fair cop; we got away with paying shit wages for a long while, but from now on it's fair pay for everyone" then prepare to be disappointed.

 

(PS - Working class people who shop at Tesco or Aldi also eat asparagus, but at this time of year it comes from Peru.)

[Gnasher]

1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

If you believe (as you seem to do) that the Government & employers will respond to the current shortages by saying "OK, it's a fair cop; we got away with paying shit wages for a long while, but from now on it's fair pay for everyone" then prepare to be disappointed.

No Angry government and employers now have no choice, whatever they say.

1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

(PS - Working class people who shop at Tesco or Aldi also eat asparagus, but at this time of year it comes from Peru.)

 

Can't stand the stuff.

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

If you believe (as you seem to do) that the Government & employers will respond to the current shortages by saying "OK, it's a fair cop; we got away with paying shit wages for a long while, but from now on it's fair pay for everyone" then prepare to be disappointed.

They've got no choice Angry, workers are no longer at their whim, the games changed, they either offer better wages, incentives, better working conditions, or all three otherwise they won't get the staff. Good.

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 

(PS - Working class people who shop at Tesco or Aldi also eat asparagus, but at this time of year it comes from Peru.)

Dreadful stuff.

[No2]

8 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

They've got no choice Angry, workers are no longer at their whim, the games changed, they either offer better wages, incentives, better working conditions, or all three otherwise they won't get the staff. 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/18/clubs-face-bouncer-shortage-as-uk-staffing-squeeze-hits-nightlife

 

Your take on this will be great, a nice pay rise for bouncers but you will once again ignore the central theme of the piece. Everyone wants everyone else to earn a decent and fair wage but you're coming at everything from the point of view of Tesco or some other giant. The reality is 90% of businesses are small businesses surviving month to month. They can't afford to be closed because they can't get staff or pay them 25% more,  in this scenario that results in DJ's, bar staff, cleaners and all other associated staff going without pay. If there was any kind of plan or control then the wage rises would be great but there isn't, it's all survival of the fittest and we all know the tories win that game.