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Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
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317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


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1 minute ago, Captain Willard said:

I genuinely don’t know how you would frame the arguments for rejoining. Trade with the EU now exceeds pre brexit levels, we are out of the mass financial scam of the CAP and wages are rising in a lot of sectors. What are you offering to the electorate as a reason for rejoining the EU - roaming charges ? 

Thousands upon thousands of people from the EU to provide cheap and affordable labour to fill the lowest paid jobs i suppose, interesting to see how that one plays out.

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15 minutes ago, skend04 said:

You've changed your avatar but you're still bullshitting. This is embarrassing.

This is from the ONS. Maybe you know better :

 

Exports of goods to the EU, excluding precious metals, were above pre-EU exit levels in May and June 2021; rising £1.2 billion (9.1%) to £14.1 billion in May 2021, followed by a further £0.2 billion (1.2%) to £14.3 billion in June 2021”

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1 minute ago, Captain Willard said:

This is from the ONS. Maybe you know better :

 

Exports of goods to the EU, excluding precious metals, were above pre-EU exit levels in May and June 2021; rising £1.2 billion (9.1%) to £14.1 billion in May 2021, followed by a further £0.2 billion (1.2%) to £14.3 billion in June 2021”

I've replied to your previous post with latest figures already. You've ignored it as it doesn't fit your posting. 

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2 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

This is from the ONS. Maybe you know better :

 

Exports of goods to the EU, excluding precious metals, were above pre-EU exit levels in May and June 2021; rising £1.2 billion (9.1%) to £14.1 billion in May 2021, followed by a further £0.2 billion (1.2%) to £14.3 billion in June 2021”

What exactly are you doing here? This quote mining bullshit has already been debunked by @Bruce Spanner . This is exactly the same bullshit you got called out on before.

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7 minutes ago, Mudface said:

What exactly are you doing here? This quote mining bullshit has already been debunked by @Bruce Spanner . This is exactly the same bullshit you got called out on before.

It’s a link to the ONS website. Look 

 at the blue line in figure 1 for UK to EU exports from 2019 to date. 

 

My basic question remains; given where we are now with trade (as per figure 1) what would be the benefit of rejoining the EU ? 

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6 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

It’s a link to the ONS website. Look 

 at the blue line in figure 1 for UK to EU exports from 2019 to date. 

I know it is, I looked it up before. I was going to reply to your original post, but Bruce pointed out with a link to the actual report that you seem very reluctant to post. It's a very selective quote and not nearly the whole story.

 

9 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

My basic question remains; given where we are now with trade (as per figure 1) what would be the benefit of rejoining the EU ? 

And my question remains- what the fuck are you doing? The exact same shite as before?

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15 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

Exports to the EU are now above pre Brexit levels according to the ONS. 

 

  • Exports of goods to the EU, excluding precious metals, were above pre-EU exit levels in May and June 2021; rising £1.2 billion (9.1%) to £14.1 billion in May 2021, followed by a further £0.2 billion (1.2%) to £14.3 billion in June 2021.

image.jpeg

Here's the link that you chose not to post because it contains more detailed - and less rosy - information.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/june2021#key-trends

 

 

[Edit] Bruce beat me to it.

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10 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

They are the 3 basic tenets of the EU. We couldn't rejoin without agreeing to all 3. 

We could agree to mitigate the negative impact of freedom of movement on the wages of the lowest-paid (the only group negatively impacted). That was always in the UK's gift. It was UK Governments that threw low-paid people under the bus.

 

Have you seen any benefit of reduced tariffs on non-EU imports? I doubt you have. Most of the biggest deals the Great Negotiator Liz Truss has struck simply replicate the deals we already had as an EU Member State.

 

There is an ongoing process to reform CAP. Because the EU will continue to account for about half of the UK's foreign trade, CAP reform will affect us. I'd like the UK to have some say in that reform.

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3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

We could agree to mitigate the negative impact of freedom of movement on the wages of the lowest-paid (the only group negatively impacted). That was always in the UK's gift. It was UK Governments that threw low-paid people under the bus.

 

Have you seen any benefit of reduced tariffs on non-EU imports? I doubt you have. Most of the biggest deals the Great Negotiator Liz Truss has struck simply replicate the deals we already had as an EU Member State.

 

There is an ongoing process to reform CAP. Because the EU will continue to account for about half of the UK's foreign trade, CAP reform will affect us. I'd like the UK to have some say in that reform.


Wages,training and regulation are set by the state, working with the demands of business.  They worked hand in hand to drive down wages and working conditions, not free movement, as countries have the sovereignty to decide that stuff, especially GB which had further exemptions as we were top of the table, despite what Dullard and Gnosher prattle on about. The push to remove rights and safety’s that were protected by the EU would be more concerning for those at the bottom of the pile, but hey-ho. I’m sure the true blue Trotts like Farage, Tice, Banks and the rest of the commie scum all had the workers of the UK in mind when they set the wheels in motion on this…

 

Most of the deals Truss has signed have been worse than previous as we don’t have SM access and were negotiating from a point of weakness. The weighting will become apparent over time and the a reason the Aussies pissed themselves laughing when the signed the deal.

 

The CAP is being replaced by the people who ran the vote leave campaign and their billionaires backers, it’s going to be worse for the little man, this is already in the public domain, but the bigger payments will most likely exceed the former as they are working to new, idiosyncratic metrics which surprisingly favour the large land owners. I am shocked! 
 

Gnasher is a fool, but excuses as he’s just the product of an algorithm and is lost.

 

Dullard, pulling the same disingenuous nonsense as last time?

 

Draw your own conclusions. 

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On 18/09/2021 at 08:18, Captain Willard said:


It’s a myth that the CAP produces cheaper food, quite the opposite in fact. Food prices in the EU have come down but are still higher than world prices for a range of everyday products. That’s why the CAP has tariffs or food taxes to keep out cheaper competition.
 

This table shows EU prices as a % of world prices. You can see how much more we have been paying higher prices for food for decades and for some products such as beef we are still paying 36% more than the global price.

 

This protectionist policy has disproportionately affected poor people for 30 years plus. This is in addition to the income taxes redirected as subsidy payments. 

 

93A09E2F-573F-4B7A-BA3E-7501258D5230.jpeg


This table shows trends in agricultural land values in the Uk. They have started to decline after decades of growth now that we have left the CAP. 
 

So we had an agricultural policy that artificially inflated food prices for European working class people for 30 years plus and simultaneously inflated land values for owners of capital but being part of this cartel is defended by people on the left. I am genuinely bemused. 

13120B1E-EAFF-4594-83DA-0B0D592C28A0.png

I am reposting this as it the key to my criticism of the CAP and the EU. Table 1 shows that every European over 30 has spent all of their adult lives overpaying for food compared to the rest of the world because of the CAP, whilst the value of farming land has shot up making most land owners millionaires (table 2).

 

Now that we have left the CAP, the payment system is being reformed and one of the key changes is to reduce payments > £150,000 by 70%. This is referenced here in appendix D. The Path to Sustainable Farming: An Agricultural Transition Plan 2021 to 2024 (publishing.service.gov.uk).

 

It is a straight lie to say payments to large land owners are being increased. 

 

In essence, we have a European policy that has artificially increased food prices for the European working class for 30 years whilst enriching owners of capital and now a Tory Government is reversing that. These changes are being opposed by people who claim to be left wing. I am genuinely bemused. 

 

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Again, half a truth.

 

Becoming a habit.

 

Livestock farmers are going to see a hit, which will see a few go to the wall, while the others will have to make savings/increase prices elsewhere in the chain. Good job we signed those weighted import deals...

 

What the above obscures, again, is that there are new ways that large land owners can coin it in and more than make up for the loss of the CAP payments, the Gov are less enthusiastic about reporting on these as it would look like billionaire land owners were getting a LOT of money for nothing, somebody in renewables who needs these lands and space would be fully aware of this, right?

 

Again, it's all in the detail.

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The above table on protection co-efficients appears to show that the EU CAP system has done a great job from 1986 to 2013 of reducing prices of internally produced goods whilst simultaneously protecting the agricultural industry from the threat of cheap external producers and maintaining food security for the continent. 

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14 minutes ago, PestiRed said:

The above table on protection co-efficients appears to show that the EU CAP system has done a great job from 1986 to 2013 of reducing prices of internally produced goods whilst simultaneously protecting the agricultural industry from the threat of cheap external producers and maintaining food security for the continent. 

When you say the "threat of cheap external producers" you mean the threat of cheaper food for the European population. As shown by the table, we have over paid for food for 30 years and beef/chicken prices are still artificially high in Europe compared to the rest of the world. Poorer people pay a higher % of their income on food so are disproportionately affected by a policy that deliberately inflates food prices by imposing tariffs.  

 

There seems to be a general group think in this thread that says EU = good and Torys = bad and hence any Tory policy that is not in line with the EU must be opposed without any further thought.

 

I repeat my earlier assertion, how can you justify a policy that increases food prices for consumers whilst enriching millionaire land owners ? 

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30 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

When you say the "threat of cheap external producers" you mean the threat of cheaper food for the European population. As shown by the table, we have over paid for food for 30 years and beef/chicken prices are still artificially high in Europe compared to the rest of the world. Poorer people pay a higher % of their income on food so are disproportionately affected by a policy that deliberately inflates food prices by imposing tariffs.  

 

There seems to be a general group think in this thread that says EU = good and Torys = bad and hence any Tory policy that is not in line with the EU must be opposed without any further thought.

 

I repeat my earlier assertion, how can you justify a policy that increases food prices for consumers whilst enriching millionaire land owners ? 


Firstly you are assuming that any cost reductions by the farmers would have been passed onto the consumer which is by no means guaranteed. 
 

Secondly, I would reiterate that food security and the ability of nation’s to feed themselves is important

 

Thirdly, there are 10.5 million farms in the EU. 304,000 of these qualify as large agricultural producers ie the group that contains the millionaire land owners. That still leaves over 10m (mostly quite poor) families across the continent who are being protected by the policy

 

Finally I forgot to mention that another benefit is the quality of the food being produced is protected so we are not flooded with crap like the USA. The primary reason for shit health outcomes in the USA and life expectancy being three years less is diet.

 

I get your point about millionaire land owners being bastards but the farming picture across the continent is complicated and worth protecting even if CAP is not a perfect solution

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5 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:


Wages,training and regulation are set by the state, working with the demands of business.  They worked hand in hand to drive down wages and working conditions, not free movement, as countries have the sovereignty to decide that stuff, especially GB which had further exemptions as we were top of the table, despite what Dullard and Gnosher prattle on about. The push to remove rights and safety’s that were protected by the EU would be more concerning for those at the bottom of the pile, but hey-ho. I’m sure the true blue Trotts like Farage, Tice, Banks and the rest of the commie scum all had the workers of the UK in mind when they set the wheels in motion on this…

 

Most of the deals Truss has signed have been worse than previous as we don’t have SM access and were negotiating from a point of weakness. The weighting will become apparent over time and the a reason the Aussies pissed themselves laughing when the signed the deal.

 

The CAP is being replaced by the people who ran the vote leave campaign and their billionaires backers, it’s going to be worse for the little man, this is already in the public domain, but the bigger payments will most likely exceed the former as they are working to new, idiosyncratic metrics which surprisingly favour the large land owners. I am shocked! 
 

Gnasher is a fool, but excuses as he’s just the product of an algorithm and is lost.

 

Dullard, pulling the same disingenuous nonsense as last time?

 

Draw your own conclusions. 

I will draw my own conclusions thanks, and the conclusion I'm coming to is you're just a silly entitled cunt who preaches from a Bentley, its people like you that have made the Labour Party so out of touch and unelectable. See insults are easy rich kid.

 

Take the article below on European working practices having a negative affect on British workers, or is O'Conner a dullard also?

 

 

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20 minutes ago, PestiRed said:


Firstly you are assuming that any cost reductions by the farmers would have been passed onto the consumer which is by no means guaranteed. 
 

Secondly, I would reiterate that food security and the ability of nation’s to feed themselves is important

 

Thirdly, there are 10.5 million farms in the EU. 304,000 of these qualify as large agricultural producers ie the group that contains the millionaire land owners. That still leaves over 10m (mostly quite poor) families across the continent who are being protected by the policy

 

Finally I forgot to mention that another benefit is the quality of the food being produced is protected so we are not flooded with crap like the USA. The primary reason for shit health outcomes in the USA and life expectancy being three years less is diet.

 

I get your point about millionaire land owners being bastards but the farming picture across the continent is complicated and worth protecting even if CAP is not a perfect solution

Well its refreshing to be able to discuss this without personal insults. I agree it is complicated and not every European farmer is a millionaire. That said, the CAP is a blunt tool that does artificially enrich the 304,000 big producers and the EU have been hugely resistant to changing it. Now that we are out, we can create our own policies that balance food security, environmental protection and consumer prices. We couldn't do this before. 

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8 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

Well its refreshing to be able to discuss this without personal insults. I agree it is complicated and not every European farmer is a millionaire. That said, the CAP is a blunt tool that does artificially enrich the 304,000 big producers and the EU have been hugely resistant to changing it. Now that we are out, we can create our own policies that balance food security, environmental protection and consumer prices. We couldn't do this before. 


well you could, but you have Boris in charge of organising it so I would start stocking up on tins 

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599

 

And another Brexit bonus. The winning just keeps on winning. Not surprising though as Tories have just said "Fuck Business" for the umpteenth time. 

 

Imagine being Lord Wolfson or Tim Martin and being hung out to dry by the guys you got into bed with. Not like there aren't loads of examples of the Conservatives doing this over the years 

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13 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

I genuinely don’t know how you would frame the arguments for rejoining. Trade with the EU now exceeds pre brexit levels, we are out of the mass financial scam of the CAP and wages are rising in a lot of sectors. What are you offering to the electorate as a reason for rejoining the EU - roaming charges ? 

The initial and almost obvious argument regardless of anything else is no cunt who voted leave had a scooby what they were voting for. Anyone who argues "It was a democratic vote we should respect it" won't ever answer directly when you counter it with "How was it democratic when nobody knew what it meant not even the government" 

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