Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Bruce Spanner]

Imagine not being able to see, or admit, that wages are tied to a weird quirk where a lot of low paid workers were removed from payroll due to capaitalist cunts shedding them to save their profits, and the much much smaller buisnesses that had to fold causing the loss of buisness, income, tax, friendships and prosperity as well, though they don't get a mention in this as it's oneupmanship for the sake of saving whatever fucking face is left after you've shown them all to the world.

 

Imagine not knowing that the avarage has been distorted by capitalisms worst excess and still rabbiting the Tory party line and celebrating as your fellow man and families are about to be hit with the biggest real term losses in income and choice in generations, imagine that?

 

Just fucking imagine somebody celebrating a huge systemic failure that will see thousands fall through the gaps, hope disappear and families suffer while crowing the Tory party line that jobs are up, they are not they are still down on pre pandemic levels, that wages are up, they are not the aggregate changed and that the working man will see a better day as hundreds of thousands are pushed further in to poverty through punitive Tory policy, yet they still cheer?

 

How someone can fall so far out of line with the bigger picture is so fucking remarkable they should make a documentary about it.

 

Gnasher, you don't care about the least well off, you only care about not being shown up for the fool you are and what you supported causing untold misery for hundreds of thousands immediately, and millions eventually.

 

It's fucking contemptible that you will use suffering to try and prove an argument that was lost to the wind within recent memory.

 

Pathetic.

[Rico1304]

12 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

The main shortages are bottled water, it’s the end of days. 

Are they? Evidence? Anecdote? Wishful thinking? Bollocks? 

[Captain Willard]

5 minutes ago, TD_LFC said:

The latest round came in under a Conservative government who were able to limit the amounts received by the top earners (and reallocate money into other areas) but chose not to.

 

The problem with a lot of the 'we can do this now we're not part of the EU' arguments is we usually could before but there was no appetite for it politically.

 

One of the very first things the Tories did post Brexit was scrap the single farm payment because even they could see it was a scam. The billionaire Dyson was being paid £50k a week in cap payments by the Eu until the reform. 

[Captain Willard]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Are they? Evidence? Anecdote? Wishful thinking? Bollocks? 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/supermarkets-running-out-bottled-water-24592751

[Rico1304]

And just wait until your electricity bills go through the fucking roof in the next few days.  About 2 or 3 big suppliers are about to go pop. 

[Bruce Spanner]

Meet the new boss, same as the old.

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/agriculture-subsidies-after-brexit

 

Can we stop making this pathetic argument now?

[Rico1304]

1 minute ago, Captain Willard said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/supermarkets-running-out-bottled-water-24592751

No, evidence the ‘main’ shortage is water. Not that it’s one of them. Come on, you’re supposed to be better than this. 

[TD_LFC]

1 minute ago, Captain Willard said:

One of the very first things the Tories did post Brexit was scrap the single farm payment because even they could see it was a scam. The billionaire Dyson was being paid £50k a week in cap payments by the Eu until the reform. 

 

Funny because they closed the latest round a few months back and aren't planning to fully get rid of it until 2027

 

And they could have limited the amount he got before Brexit and chose not to.

[Gnasher]

7 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Imagine not being able to see, or admit, that wages are tied to a weird quirk where a lot of low paid workers were removed from payroll due to capaitalist cunts shedding them to save their profits, and the much much smaller buisnesses that had to fold causing the loss of buisness, income, tax, friendships and prosperity as well, though they don't get a mention in this as it's oneupmanship for the sake of saving whatever fucking face is left after you've shown them all to the world.

 

Imagine not knowing that the avarage has been distorted by capitalisms worst excess and still rabbiting the Tory party line and celebrating as your fellow man and families are about to be hit with the biggest real term losses in income and choice in generations, imagine that?

 

Just fucking imagine somebody celebrating a huge systemic failure that will see thousands fall through the gaps, hope disappear and families suffer while crowing the Tory party line that jobs are up, they are not they are still down on pre pandemic levels, that wages are up, they are not the aggregate changed and that the working man will see a better day as hundreds of thousands are pushed further in to poverty through punitive Tory policy, yet they still cheer?

 

How someone can fall so far out of line with the bigger picture is so fucking remarkable they should make a documentary about it.

 

Gnasher, you don't care about the least well off, you only care about not being shown up for the fool you are and what you supported causing untold misery for hundreds of thousands immediately, and millions eventually.

 

It's fucking contemptible that you will use suffering to try and prove an argument that was lost to the wind within recent memory.

 

Pathetic.

The less well off you claim to care about have been losing out for years, not my opinion but the official figures. I've posted it numerous times and you've never been remotely concerned.

 

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

 

[Gnasher]

Corruption to benefit the rich whilst destroying the planet,

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/world/europe/eu-farm-subsidy-hungary.html

[Arniepie]

Arguing that empty of shelves,of anything, because of our own actions, isnt a big deal, is really a neat trick.

[Bruce Spanner]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The less well off you claim to care about have been losing out for years, not my opinion but the official figures. I've posted it numerous times and you've never been remotely concerned.

 

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

 

 

Might want to check on the funding of that little symposium, makes for interesting reading.

 

Only supports my assertion that you unknowingly spout Tory bile, it's OK, it happened to millions.

 

Shameful scenes my unthinking little friend, I'm sure you'll agree?

[Gnasher]

9 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

Might want to check on the funding of that little symposium, makes for interesting reading.

 

Only supports my assertion that you unknowingly spout Tory bile, it's OK, it happened to millions.

 

Shameful scenes my unthinking little friend, I'm sure you'll agree.

Shoot the messenger? It's been obvious for years and the lowest paid now getting wage rises only confirms it to be the truth.

 

Crack on with your silly personal insults Spanner, you're man of the people charade reads a little thin. Low paid workers are getting a rise and are more secure in work, sorry but that's the way it is and that's the way it was predicted. Supply and demand. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/29/so-whats-so-wrong-with-labour-shortages-driving-up-low-wages

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Oh come on Angry, you're on solid ground with most of your arguments with that I agree but the EU agricultural policy has been nothing but a fraud for the past 20 or so years, plus its helped destroy the planet. 

 

You can't brush it off with the simple 'oh well a lot of others have done it' so let's not be too critical; defence surely?

 

  It's been a fucking catastrophic policy for everyone in Europe and the world bar the European elite.

When did I say "let's not be too critical"? Or even say anything in defence of the CAP?

 

Do me a favour; go back to my post from this morning and read the first two words.

[Captain Willard]

22 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

And just wait until your electricity bills go through the fucking roof in the next few days.  About 2 or 3 big suppliers are about to go pop. 

I think energy prices are going up across Europe because of the combination of exceptionally cold winters in the US last year which depleted gas supplies followed by hot summers in Europe which drove up electricity demand (and hence gas consumption) to power air conditioners. 

 

A couple of co2 producers in the Uk have now stopped production because the high electricity price makes the process  uneconomic. This will impact on food supplies as CO2 is used to gas chickens and stop salads rotting (it is pumped into the bags). .
 

We live in world where a cold winter in the US and the population of Spain running their air conditioning makes it uneconomic to kill chickens or preserve salads. It’s much more nuanced than just blaming the evil Tories for Brexit but hey ho most things are. 

[Rico1304]

1 minute ago, Captain Willard said:

I think energy prices are going up across Europe because of the combination of exceptionally cold winters in the US last year which depleted gas supplies followed by hot summers in Europe which drove up electricity demand (and hence gas consumption) to power air conditioners. 

 

A couple of co2 producers in the Uk have now stopped production because the high electricity price makes the process  uneconomic. This will impact on food supplies as CO2 is used to gas chickens and stop salads rotting (it is pumped into the bags). .
 

We live in world where a cold winter in the US and the population of Spain running their air conditioning makes it uneconomic to kill chickens or preserve salads. It’s much more nuanced than just blaming the evil Tories for Brexit but hey ho most things are. 

Electricity prices have gone up 50% in the last few days because of the fire in the interconnecter between us and France’s grid. Anyone who’s not hedged will be fucked and ROC payments will be due soon. So. Well. 

[Gnasher]

15 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You're right, but there's not much point in singling out the EU for special attention.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/15/world/climate-pledges-insufficient-cat-intl/index.html

 

Why isn't their "much point for singling out the EU" ? 

 

 

Quote

(There's an alternate universe in which a Corbyn Government within the EU could have had some influence on this. Instead, the 51.9% voted not to influence EU policies and then voted for a Tory Government that is wholly on the side of the climate-destroyers in any case )

 

You seriously think their was any desire to change the agricultural policy? And if so it wouldn't have got through.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

45 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

Why isn't their "much point for singling out the EU" ? 

 

 

You seriously think their was any desire to change the agricultural policy? And if so it wouldn't have got through.

There's no point singling out one of many equally guilty parties because it lets the rest off the hook.

 

The EU only does what the governments of (the biggest and most powerful) Member States want. There is a widespread desire to change the CAP; the tricky bit is getting the political will to change it properly. As long as Germany, France and the other major Member States keep electing "Centrist" governments, that's not going to happen.

[Rico1304]

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

There's no point singling out one of many equally guilty parties because it lets the rest off the hook.

 

The EU only does what the governments of (the biggest and most powerful) Member States want. There is a widespread desire to change the CAP; the tricky bit is getting the political will to change it properly. As long as Germany, France and the other major Member States keep electing "Centrist" governments, that's not going to happen.

We were never going to change CAP. My numbers may be out but % of our economy in agriculture is about 2 and in Europe is about 20. So while we were pretending to try and change shit we were taking the cheap food the policy generated. 
 

Now it’s gone and we’ve got empty shelves. VICTORY! 

[Gnasher]

7 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

We were never going to change CAP. My numbers may be out but % of our economy in agriculture is about 2 and in Europe is about 20. So while we were pretending to try and change shit we were taking the cheap food the policy generated. 
 

Now it’s gone and we’ve got empty shelves. VICTORY! 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/17/empty-shelves-covid-brexit-britain-lorry-drivers

[Rico1304]

21 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/17/empty-shelves-covid-brexit-britain-lorry-drivers

Just a coincidence. Like when someone broke my window and loads of stuff got nicked but my neighbours were ok. 

[Gnasher]

12 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Just a coincidence. Like when someone broke my window and loads of stuff got nicked but my neighbours were ok. 

Er rightio, just like you said.

[Captain Willard]

8 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

We were never going to change CAP. My numbers may be out but % of our economy in agriculture is about 2 and in Europe is about 20. So while we were pretending to try and change shit we were taking the cheap food the policy generated. 
 

Now it’s gone and we’ve got empty shelves. VICTORY! 

It’s a myth that the CAP produces cheaper food, quite the opposite in fact. Food prices in the EU have come down but are still higher than world prices for a range of everyday products. That’s why the CAP has tariffs or food taxes to keep out cheaper competition.
 

This table shows EU prices as a % of world prices. You can see how much more we have been paying higher prices for food for decades and for some products such as beef we are still paying 36% more than the global price.

 

This protectionist policy has disproportionately affected poor people for 30 years plus. This is in addition to the income taxes redirected as subsidy payments. 

 

This table shows trends in agricultural land values in the Uk. They have started to decline after decades of growth now that we have left the CAP. 
 

So we had an agricultural policy that artificially inflated food prices for European working class people for 30 years plus and simultaneously inflated land values for owners of capital but being part of this cartel is defended by people on the left. I am genuinely bemused. 

[No2]

11 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

It’s a myth that the CAP produces cheaper food, quite the opposite in fact. Food prices in the EU have come down but are still higher than world prices for a range of everyday products. That’s why the CAP has tariffs or food taxes to keep out cheaper competition.
 

This table shows EU prices as a % of world prices. You can see how much more we have been paying higher prices for food for decades and for some products such as beef we are still paying 36% more than the global price.

 

This protectionist policy has disproportionately affected poor people for 30 years plus. This is in addition to the income taxes redirected as subsidy payments. 

 

This table shows trends in agricultural land values in the Uk. They have started to decline after decades of growth now that we have left the CAP. 
 

So we had an agricultural policy that artificially inflated food prices for European working class people for 30 years plus and simultaneously inflated land values for owners of capital but this policy is defended by people on the left. I am genuinely bemused. 

In Europe farmers are paid to plant trees on their land, their competitors with cheaper beef are burning down the amazon. 

[Rico1304]

36 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

It’s a myth that the CAP produces cheaper food, quite the opposite in fact. Food prices in the EU have come down but are still higher than world prices for a range of everyday products. That’s why the CAP has tariffs or food taxes to keep out cheaper competition.
 

This table shows EU prices as a % of world prices. You can see how much more we have been paying higher prices for food for decades and for some products such as beef we are still paying 36% more than the global price.

 

This protectionist policy has disproportionately affected poor people for 30 years plus. This is in addition to the income taxes redirected as subsidy payments. 

 

This table shows trends in agricultural land values in the Uk. They have started to decline after decades of growth now that we have left the CAP. 
 

So we had an agricultural policy that artificially inflated food prices for European working class people for 30 years plus and simultaneously inflated land values for owners of capital but being part of this cartel is defended by people on the left. I am genuinely bemused. 

Can you show me the same graph for non-ag land as a comparison?