Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Bruce Spanner]

3 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

How so?

 

Reduces opportunities and protects them from exploitation.

 

Both Socialism and Facism are protectionist at heart, which leads to the weird agreement on the sanctity of borders and movement.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

6 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

Reduces opportunities and protects them from exploitation.

 

Both Socialism and Facism are protectionist at heart, which leads to the weird agreement on the sanctity of borders and movement.

I don't think that's right. Socialism is internationalist. Socialism in one country is not workable.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a Socialist speaking out against the principle of free movement (or, indeed, speaking in favour of restricting workers' rights in any way).  The problem with the EU that irked the likes of Foot, Benn & Crowe was a macroeconomic one: that membership of the EU put limits on Government deficit spending and made nationalisation more difficult. 

[Bruce Spanner]

8 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I don't think that's right. Socialism is internationalist. Socialism in one country is not workable.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a Socialist speaking out against the principle of free movement (or, indeed, speaking in favour of restricting workers' rights in any way).  The problem with the EU that irked the likes of Foot, Benn & Crowe was a macroeconomic one: that membership of the EU put limits on Government deficit spending and made nationalisation more difficult. 

 

Only with other Socialists states, which obviously presents real world problems as The USSR and China had to pervert this position to thrive foregoing their true ideology.

 

Maybe theres a middle ground, but everything I have read and heard from old school Trots is that a form of protectionism exists inherently as it's necessary to protect the foundations of the state and freedom of movement, on a large scale, would be anathema to that.

 

Again, more than happy to be wrong, but that's my take on it.

 

Should add I'm arguing the theory not the actuality.

[Gnasher]

21 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

How so?

Benn, Foot, Attlee etc. In 1989 89% of the Labour conference voted to leave the EU. Spanners right.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

Benn, Foot, Attlee etc. In 1989 89% of the Labour conference voted to leave the EU. Spanners right.

Did they specifically vote because of free movement? Or did they vote because of the reasons I said?

[Gnasher]

35 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I don't think so.

 

He hated neoliberalism. 

 

[Edit]

Messages got muddied during the elections, but my understanding was that he was in favour of immigration without exploitation  (which would be wholly consistent with EU rules on free movement).

 

 

Not quite the same though, I'm on the same page as Corbs there, most people who are not cuntish would be. He doesn't fully state his support for the single market or free movement. I also think he had to compromise a few of his beliefs to satisfy the right of the party.

[Gnasher]

The good old days of a whole year ago when bosses could offer some kid £9 an hour, expect them to jump through burning hoops and generally treat them like shit..

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Did they specifically vote because of free movement? Or did they vote because of the reasons I said?

No idea although I'm sure Ursula would have charmed em.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Here are a couple of articles (quite long and occasionally heavy, but worth reading) from before the Referendum.  One makes an Internationalist, Socialist case for Leave; the other makes an Internationalist, Socialist case for Remain. Between them, they shaped a fair bit of my thinking on this.

 

http://isj.org.uk/the-eu-referendum-the-case-for-yes/

 

http://isj.org.uk/the-internationalist-case-against-the-european-union/

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

27 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Not quite the same though, I'm on the same page as Corbs there, most people who are not cuntish would be. He doesn't fully state his support for the single market or free movement. I also think he had to compromise a few of his beliefs to satisfy the right of the party.

That was after the Referendum, when it would have been unrealistic (not to mention politically suicidal) to act as if nothing was going to change. 

 

The point is, he rejects the argument that the problem with free movement is the number of immigrant workers.

[Gnasher]

23 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

That was after the Referendum, when it would have been unrealistic (not to mention politically suicidal) to act as if nothing was going to change. 

 

The point is, he rejects the argument that the problem with free movement is the number of immigrant workers.

 Not sure on Corbs tbh, if he's leader of the party he's got to tread on eggshells but as a lefty growing up in the party with Benn and Foot Id be suprised if he'd have fully welcomed free movement.

 

Can you not see the affects of supply and demand by the link from below and see the boost for potential employees? 

 

We're witnessing the biggest shift in worker/employer relationship for a generation and Brexit ( alongside Covid) is a major reason. To suggest a lorry driver, construction worker or girl in a coffee shop is not in a stronger position now than a year or so ago is plainly ludicrous

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Corbyn had every moment of his political career until 2015 (and since the start of last year) to speak out against free movement or to make an unequivocal call for the UK to leave the EU.  He never did either. That may be because he's shy and prefers to keep his opinions to himself, or it may be because he never actually thought that way.

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Corbyn had every moment of his political career until 2015 (and since the start of last year) to speak out against free movement or to make an unequivocal call for the UK to leave the EU.  He never did either. That may be because he's shy and prefers to keep his opinions to himself, or it may be because he never actually thought that way.

Well he did vote to leave in 1975 and rejected the Maastricht treaty in 1993 so I wouldn't mark him down as an EU lover, I don't know his opinion on free movement in itself but I'd be surprised if he'd fully endorse the human cattle market.

[Bruce Spanner]

24 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Corbyn had every moment of his political career until 2015 (and since the start of last year) to speak out against free movement or to make an unequivocal call for the UK to leave the EU.  He never did either. That may be because he's shy and prefers to keep his opinions to himself, or it may be because he never actually thought that way.

 

He called for Article 50 to be invoked before May!

 

Can we not have a reappraisal, he's a confirmed Euro-Sceptic and his action in parliament support that, he is part of the reason the UK is now out of the EU, this is not in question.

 

Even recently Brown, Milliband and McCluskey have called for more immigration control, as have the Socialist party - Formally 'Millitant' and various others, the argumnets for this vary, but at the heart of it it's to protect 'our' workers rights and wages.

 

It's hard for 'us' to accept that we ain't always the heros we want to be, but hand waving away legitimate examples does nobody any favours.

 

Theoretically Socialism is bound to protect it's 'own', you can make the argument that internationalism would further those aims, as a lot try to do with argument about unions growing etc, but at the heart of it it has to be protectionist to prevent capitalism's folly reducing workers rights to naught in the nation state.

 

Here's Corbyns record on Europe, I'm not getting a strong 'I heart Europe' vibe.

 

• Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.
• In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).
• In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.
• In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.
• Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.
• The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.
• In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.
• Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.
• During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.
• In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.
• In 2018, Jeremy Corbyn said he would try to make  Brexit go ahead even if Labour won a general election before it happened.
• In February 2019, Jeremy Corbyn set out how he was ready to back Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
• In March 2019, writing in the Daily Mirror, Jeremy Corbyn repeated his support for Brexit, saying, “I will continue to reach out to get a decent Brexit deal”.

 

An interview with his feeling on immigration...

 

'"Labour is not wedded to freedom of movement for EU citizens as a point of principle, but I don't want that to be misinterpreted, nor do we rule it out," he said.

 

"We cannot afford to lose full access to the European markets on which so many British businesses and jobs depend. "Changes to the way migration rules operate from the EU will be part of the negotiations."

 

Talking to the BBC's political editor, Mr Corbyn, who has repeatedly insisted since becoming leader that EU migration to the UK is not too high, was asked if the speech meant he had now changed his view.

 

He replied: "No. My mind is quite clear that we need to end the exploitation that's going on, we need to maintain a market access within Europe and we need to ensure there are good relations between all communities."

 

Mr Corbyn said the focus should be on ending the abuse of low-skilled workers under existing EU employment rules and promoting more local recruitment - which he argued would "probably" reduce immigration, irrespective of Brexit.

 

Asked whether he agreed that anyone without a job offer should be barred from coming to the UK, he said: "We are not saying that anyone could not come here because there would be the right of travel and so on.

 

"The right to work here would be something that would have to be negotiated."

The Labour leader said the "grotesque exploitation" of EU migrants by some UK companies had caused "awful tensions" in communities because of the under-cutting of wages.

 

But he defended the role of migrants in helping the NHS and other public services function.

 

While the UK was definitely leaving the EU, he said it could not "avoid" having a close trading relationship with the continent.

 

"What we don't want to do is turn Britain into a bargain-basement economy on the shores of Europe where we continuously reduce corporation taxation, encourage a low-wage economy," he said.

 

"Instead what we want is a high-value economy with skilled jobs promoting high-quality exports."

[Gnasher]

5 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

He called for Article 50 to be invoked before May!

 

Can we not have a reappraisal, he's a confirmed Euro-Sceptic and his action in parliament support that, he is part of the reason the UK is now out of the EU, this is not in question.

 

Even recently Brown, Milliband and McCluskey have called for more immigration control, as have the Socialist party - Formally 'Millitant' and various others, the argumnets for this vary, but at the heart of it it's to protect 'our' workers rights and wages.

 

It's hard for 'us' to accept that we ain't always the heros we want to be, but hand waving away legitimate examples does nobody any favours.

 

Theoretically Socialism is bound to protect it's 'own', you can make the argument that internationailsim would futher those aims, as a lot try to do with argument about unions growing etc, but at the heart of it it has to be protectionist to prevent capitalisms folly reducing workers rights to naught in the nation state.

 

Here's Corbyns record on Europe, I'm not getting a strong 'I heart Europe' vibe.

 

• Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.
• In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).
• In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.
• In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.
• Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.
• The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.
• In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.
• Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.
• During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.
• In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.
• In 2018, Jeremy Corbyn said he would try to make  Brexit go ahead even if Labour won a general election before it happened.
• In February 2019, Jeremy Corbyn set out how he was ready to back Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
• In March 2019, writing in the Daily Mirror, Jeremy Corbyn repeated his support for Brexit, saying, “I will continue to reach out to get a decent Brexit deal”.

Fair points Angry.

[Bruce Spanner]

Immigration and freedom of movement - Manifesto 2017 (Appears in similar form in 2019)

 

'Labour’s 2017 manifesto stated that “Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change.”

 

In July, Jeremy Corbyn said that immigration “would be a managed thing on the basis of the skills required… What there wouldn’t be is whole-scale importation of underpaid workers from central Europe in order to destroy conditions, particularly in the construction industries.”

 

Later in the summer, the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, said “We’ve always defended freedom of movement in principle; but [it] cannot be on the basis that it undermines standards of living in this country – and therefore we address that issue in a practical way.”

 

Talking to Andrew Marr in December, the shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer went slightly further than his colleagues, agreeing that Labour’s preferred approach is “easy movement if not free.” He said: “The end of free movement doesn’t mean no movement. Of course we would want people to come from the EU to work here, we would want people who are here to go to work in the EU.”

 

Labour has been fairly consistent on immigration. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell seem wary of full freedom of movement because they believe it negatively affects wages and conditions, but both emphasise the need for some managed migration.

 

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, is perhaps the only figure deviating from this narrative – his emphasis is on easy movement post-Brexit.'

 

 

[Gnasher]

Talking of Corbs it'd be very interesting to see what reception, Foot, Benn, Atlee, Bob Crow, Nye Bevan would receive if they were alive and posted their veiws on the EU here.

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Well he did vote to leave in 1975 and rejected the Maastricht treaty in 1993 so I wouldn't mark him down as an EU lover, I don't know his opinion on free movement in itself but I'd be surprised if he'd fully endorse the human cattle market.

You don't have to be "an EU lover" to recognise that it would have been better for UK workers had we voted to remain; even someone who would score the EU 7 or 7.5 out of 10 can see that. 

 

As for his opinion on free movement, if he harboured the frankly daft belief that it's a "human cattle market" then it's a fair bet he would have spoken out against it at some point.  The fact that he never said "we need to reduce workers' rights" suggests that he never shared your opinion. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Talking of Corbs it'd be very interesting to see what reception, Foot, Benn, Atlee, Bob Crow, Nye Bevan would receive if they were alive and posted their veiws on the EU here.

 

 

I'd be alarmed if any one of them came on here advocating reduced rights for workers. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

He called for Article 50 to be invoked before May!

 

Can we not have a reappraisal, he's a confirmed Euro-Sceptic and his action in parliament support that, he is part of the reason the UK is now out of the EU, this is not in question.

 

Even recently Brown, Milliband and McCluskey have called for more immigration control, as have the Socialist party - Formally 'Millitant' and various others, the argumnets for this vary, but at the heart of it it's to protect 'our' workers rights and wages.

 

It's hard for 'us' to accept that we ain't always the heros we want to be, but hand waving away legitimate examples does nobody any favours.

 

Theoretically Socialism is bound to protect it's 'own', you can make the argument that internationalism would further those aims, as a lot try to do with argument about unions growing etc, but at the heart of it it has to be protectionist to prevent capitalism's folly reducing workers rights to naught in the nation state.

 

Here's Corbyns record on Europe, I'm not getting a strong 'I heart Europe' vibe.

 

• Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.
• In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).
• In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.
• In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.
• Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.
• The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.
• In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.
• Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.
• During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.
• In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.
• In 2018, Jeremy Corbyn said he would try to make  Brexit go ahead even if Labour won a general election before it happened.
• In February 2019, Jeremy Corbyn set out how he was ready to back Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
• In March 2019, writing in the Daily Mirror, Jeremy Corbyn repeated his support for Brexit, saying, “I will continue to reach out to get a decent Brexit deal”.

 

An interview with his feeling on immigration...

 

'"Labour is not wedded to freedom of movement for EU citizens as a point of principle, but I don't want that to be misinterpreted, nor do we rule it out," he said.

 

"We cannot afford to lose full access to the European markets on which so many British businesses and jobs depend. "Changes to the way migration rules operate from the EU will be part of the negotiations."

 

Talking to the BBC's political editor, Mr Corbyn, who has repeatedly insisted since becoming leader that EU migration to the UK is not too high, was asked if the speech meant he had now changed his view.

 

He replied: "No. My mind is quite clear that we need to end the exploitation that's going on, we need to maintain a market access within Europe and we need to ensure there are good relations between all communities."

 

Mr Corbyn said the focus should be on ending the abuse of low-skilled workers under existing EU employment rules and promoting more local recruitment - which he argued would "probably" reduce immigration, irrespective of Brexit.

 

Asked whether he agreed that anyone without a job offer should be barred from coming to the UK, he said: "We are not saying that anyone could not come here because there would be the right of travel and so on.

 

"The right to work here would be something that would have to be negotiated."

The Labour leader said the "grotesque exploitation" of EU migrants by some UK companies had caused "awful tensions" in communities because of the under-cutting of wages.

 

But he defended the role of migrants in helping the NHS and other public services function.

 

While the UK was definitely leaving the EU, he said it could not "avoid" having a close trading relationship with the continent.

 

"What we don't want to do is turn Britain into a bargain-basement economy on the shores of Europe where we continuously reduce corporation taxation, encourage a low-wage economy," he said.

 

"Instead what we want is a high-value economy with skilled jobs promoting high-quality exports."

Do we really have to go round this argument again? It was pointless first time around. 

 

What you've posted is a litany summarising the case of those who claimed that Corbyn was a closet Brexiteer (because they had convinced themselves that the route to electoral success was to oppose Brexit  - great instincts they've got  - and therefore they could paint Corbyn as a liability by linking him to Brexit) but still they couldn’t find a single example of Corbyn unequivocally calling for the UK to leave the EU until a majority of people had voted for exactly that.

 

And it's pretty clear from that interview that if Socialists are supposed to be horny for nationalistic protectionism, then he's no Socialist. 

[Bruce Spanner]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Do we really have to go round this argument again? It was pointless first time around. 

 

What you've posted is a litany summarising the case of those who claimed that Corbyn was a closet Brexiteer (because they had convinced themselves that the route to electoral success was to oppose Brexit  - great instincts they've got  - and therefore they could paint Corbyn as a liability by linking him to Brexit) but still they couldn’t find a single example of Corbyn unequivocally calling for the UK to leave the EU until a majority of people had voted for exactly that.

 

And it's pretty clear from that interview that if Socialists are supposed to be horny for nationalistic protectionism, then he's no Socialist. 

 

No, I agree, it's pointless, but positioning him as anything other than anti EU is revisionism I didn't think possible.

 

Anyhows we're on the same team, with the majority of the same views and ambitions for folk, so ain't nothing but love for you. Mal.

 

Have a great night.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Can we not have a reappraisal, he's a confirmed Euro-Sceptic and his action in parliament support that, he is part of the reason the UK is now out of the EU, this is not in question.

"This is not in question".

 

I disagree!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

positioning him as anything other than anti EU is revisionism I didn't think possible.

No it isn't. 

 

Goodnight. 

[Bruce Spanner]

7 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

"This is not in question".

 

I disagree!

 

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No it isn't. 

 

Goodnight. 

 

Good for you.

 

Hs voting record and the subsequent vigour with which he threw himself in to the referendum kinda says otherwise, but hey-ho.

 

I am not wasting time arguing over Corbyn.

[Gnasher]

18 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Did they specifically vote because of free movement? Or did they vote because of the reasons I said?

Not sure on the specifics Angry, I know Crow was against free movement, I'd wager the others were also although I've no concrete proof. As you say though it does come with the package and all of Foot, Bevan, Attlee and Benn were 100% against the package.

 

One clue might be Atlee's treatment of Poles after the war. Whilst Tory pm Neville Chamberlain (to a lot of raised eyebrows in the commons) guaranteed all Polish people British citizenship, Atlee refused the Polish a place in the 1946 victory parade after the war, he also suggested they went back home. Nye Bevan was understood to have taken the same position. 

 

Atlee was a privately educated patriot. He was also Britains greatest prime minister. I can only imagine the response if he aired those veiws on here.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28979789