Jump to content
  • Sign up for free and receive a month's subscription

    You are viewing this page as a guest. That means you are either a member who has not logged in, or you have not yet registered with us. Signing up for an account only takes a minute and it means you will no longer see this annoying box! It will also allow you to get involved with our friendly(ish!) community and take part in the discussions on our forums. And because we're feeling generous, if you sign up for a free account we will give you a month's free trial access to our subscriber only content with no obligation to commit. Register an account and then send a private message to @dave u and he'll hook you up with a subscription.

Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
 Share

  

317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, M_B said:

Yeah agreed, but I don't think that is sufficient reason to convince most to join the EU. If there were tariffs to trade then I suspect more would see the economic value in it, but otherwise it is difficult to convince people like Gnasher to accept things like freedom of movement for a voice in decision making.

One thing Gnasher is right about - the referendum ship has sailed, long since. Even the promise of a confirmatory vote on the deal with the EU was enough to spook voters into the arms of the worst bunch of Tory cunts in generations. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

One thing Gnasher is right about - the referendum ship has sailed, long since. Even the promise of a confirmatory vote on the deal with the EU was enough to spook voters into the arms of the worst bunch of Tory cunts in generations. 

You can't ask for a vote on something that hasn't been enacted. It was bound to end badly, with the perceived English sense of fair play. I think in a few years time things may well start to look different, especially with a lot of the checks and such like due to hit in January 2022, but seeing Tories still at 38% in the polls whilst they kill off the population I don't hold much hope that there's much sense available anywhere on these isles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Immigrants don't drive down wages (except under a Tory Government and in the lowest-paid sectors) or job security.  Your own links show that.

 

There's nothing the Tories and exploitative bosses love more than working class people blaming other working class people. I'm not falling for it: unity is strength and all that.

Wrong..wrong fucking wrong.. free movement drives down the wages of those in low pay and already settled immigrants. 

 

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

 

It's why the EU was so keen to expand (for more cheap labour)  and its why low paid workers are starting to witness real term wage rises for the first time in yonks after leaving the EU.

 

Failure by members of the modern day Labour Party to admit the above is a main reason why we've suffered endless modern day Tory governments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Wrong..wrong fucking wrong.. free movement drives down the wages of those in low pay and already settled immigrants. 

 

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

 

It's why the EU was so keen to expand (for more cheap labour)  and its why low paid workers are starting to witness real term wage rises for the first time in yonks after leaving the EU.

 

Failure by members of the modern day Labour Party to admit the above is a main reason why we've suffered endless modern day Tory governments.

That link supports what I said in the post you're calling "wrong".

 

Cheap labour wasn’t the sole - or even the main - driver of EU expansion; it's just baseless nonsense to suggest it was.  (It also reduces the states who joined the EU to the status of victims, rather than active participants looking after their own self-interest.)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

That link supports what I said in the post you're calling "wrong".

 

Cheap labour wasn’t the sole - or even the main - driver of EU expansion; it's just baseless nonsense to suggest it was.  (It also reduces the states who joined the EU to the status of victims, rather than active participants looking after their own self-interest.)

 

It does not support it at all. It states the negative impact on low paid and settled immigrants themselves. 

 

"LOW PAID WORKERS LOSE WHILST MEDIUM TO HIGH PAID WORKERS GAIN THROUGH IMMIGRATION'   The report is clear..

 

 

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

 

Here's another example, a survey of 2.500 nationwide construction firms, the evidence is overwhelming and predictable. Wage rises after Brexit.. or don't these count as well? 

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/london-wage-inflation-attributed-to-brexit-factor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

It does not support it at all. It states the negative impact on low paid and settled immigrants themselves. 

 

"LOW PAID WORKERS LOSE WHILST MEDIUM TO HIGH PAID WORKERS GAIN THROUGH IMMIGRATION'   

At least you did the cherry-picking yourself, instead of flying in some immigrants to do it.

 

20210725_113233.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

At least you did the cherry-picking yourself, instead of flying in some immigrants to do it.

 

20210725_113233.png

As i said and what most people know, the low waged are/were likely to lose.. and know they're seeing wage rises, wha is it about low paid workers receiving a much needed pay rise because of Brexit that so upsets people? The enthusiasm is not even lukewarm.

 

I noted people pulling their hair out on here a short while ago over youngsters not working on rich ski resorts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically, you're making two claims.

 

First, your saying that freedom of movement drove down wages and reduced job security.  That report contradicts that: it says that it had very little impact, but that the impact was unevenly distributed.

 

Secondly, you say that the current wage rises (in some sectors) are wholly or primarily driven by labour shortages which are wholly or primarily driven by Brexit and that this, somehow, heralds a brighter future for all workers. That sort of follows logically from your incorrect reading of the Migration Observatory report. Unfortunately, it ignores the impact of Covid and (more importantly) the existence of a fundamentalist neoliberal government whose main aim in leaving the EU was to free their exploitative business chums from EU "red tape" (such as workers's rights, consumer standards, environmental protections, etc.)

 

So, like I say, my message to those who have benefited from a well-earned pay rise is "don't spend it all at once". These cunts will take it back with interest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Basically, you're making two claims.

 

First, your saying that freedom of movement drove down wages and reduced job security.  That report contradicts that: it says that it had very little impact, but that the impact was unevenly distributed.

 

Oh it was "UNEVENLY DISRIRIBUTED" alright, and no prizes for guessing who the losers were for all them years  the people the Labour Party are supposed to be out batting for.  

 

And I didn't day it's driving down wages as a whole, I said it's driving down the wages of the low paid and settled immigrants themselves. You tried to suggest otherwise but we got there in the end.

 

14 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Secondly, you say that the current wage rises (in some sectors) are wholly or primarily driven by labour shortages which are wholly or primarily driven by Brexit and that this, somehow, heralds a brighter future for all workers. That sort of follows logically from your incorrect reading of the Migration Observatory report

I didn't incorrectly read the Migration report Angry, you did. You've tried to pretend free movement didn't impact the low paid for years.

 

 

14 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 

. Unfortunately, it ignores the impact of Covid and (more importantly) the existence of a fundamentalist neoliberal government whose main aim in leaving the EU was to free their exploitative business chums from EU "red tape" (such as workers's rights, consumer standards, environmental protections, etc.)

You're probably right on the government's reasons for leaving the EU but thats a separate issue.

14 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

So, like I say, my message to those who have benefited from a well-earned pay rise is "don't spend it all at once". These cunts will take it back with interest.

 

Youre possibly correct again but that's through the government we select and not the result of Brexit itself. This government has done a pretty good job of trampling over workers rights whilst in the EU but again that's a separate issue to the current wage rises.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gnasher manages to be not only the biggest dick on the forum but also the biggest cunt. 
 

I thought this thread was apt to mention that. 
 

disclaimer: he isn’t the biggest dick or cunt on here and that speaks volumes to the champion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I didn't incorrectly read the Migration report Angry, you did. You've tried to pretend free movement didn't impact the low paid for years.

No I haven't.  Not once. I have repeatedly referred to the Migration Observatory report. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Gnasher manages to be not only the biggest dick on the forum but also the biggest cunt. 
 

I thought this thread was apt to mention that. 
 

disclaimer: he isn’t the biggest dick or cunt on here and that speaks volumes to the champion. 

Nice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Oh it was "UNEVENLY DISRIRIBUTED" alright, and no prizes for guessing who the losers were for all them years  the people the Labour Party are supposed to be out batting for.  

I'd say that, if a few hundred thousand people had voted the other way in both 2016 and 2017, a Corbyn-led Labour Government might have seen free movement work in everybody's favour.  You can't claim that free movement is inherently a bad thing for lower-paid workers if the only example you have is how it operates under a Tory Government. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

You're probably right on the government's reasons for leaving the EU but thats a separate issue....

This government has done a pretty good job of trampling over workers rights whilst in the EU but again that's a separate issue to the current wage rises.

They're not separate issues, though. These things don't exist in neat little boxes.  Everything happens in a context and these issues all impact on each other. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I'd say that, if a few hundred thousand people had voted the other way in both 2016 and 2017, a Corbyn-led Labour Government might have seen free movement work in everybody's favour.  You can't claim that free movement is inherently a bad thing for lower-paid workers if the only example you have is how it operates under a Tory Government. 

I thought (might be wrong) that Corbyn hated free movement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

They're not separate issues, though. These things don't exist in neat little boxes.  Everything happens in a context and these issues all impact on each other. 

Agreed they do impact on each other I was just focusing on free movement and it's impact on wages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I'd say that, if a few hundred thousand people had voted the other way in both 2016 and 2017, a Corbyn-led Labour Government might have seen free movement work in everybody's favour.  You can't claim that free movement is inherently a bad thing for lower-paid workers if the only example you have is how it operates under a Tory Government. 

I refer to the Sarah O'connor report she did on free movement for the Financial Times and how the influx changed British working practices (for the worse imo) as bosses started using overseas labour for their own shift patterns, to live on site etc 

 

O'connor is not a Brexit supporter and is a superb journalist and her report is well balanced. I think I've posted it on here before, I can't again as I've used my free reads and hell will freeze over before I give that cunt money.

 

Edit, supply and demand,

 

 

 

 

More from O'connor this week... she really is an excellent journo, 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

I thought (might be wrong) that Corbyn hated free movement.

I don't think so.

 

He hated neoliberalism. 

 

[Edit]

Messages got muddied during the elections, but my understanding was that he was in favour of immigration without exploitation  (which would be wholly consistent with EU rules on free movement).

 

 

20210725_135421.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I don't think so.

 

He hated neoliberalism. 

 

Old school socialists have always been against it as it dilutes nationals standings, unless of course the other country is socialist also. 

 

I'm pretty sure his thinking would be alligned with this, though am happy to be corrected.

 

A weird quirk where the far left and far right agree on a singular issue in a much larger debate.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...