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Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
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317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


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28 minutes ago, Poster said:

From 2016

 

In his speech Cameron argued that the EU has helped to “anchor peace and stability across the European continent” by binding the continent together. 

“The European Union has helped reconcile countries which were once at each others’ throats for decades. Britain has a fundamental national interest in maintaining common purpose in Europe to avoid future conflict between European countries,” the prime minister said.

 

A key weakness in Cameron’s argument is that security in western and central Europe, and parts of eastern Europe, is not, for the most part, within the remit of the EU. It is mainly a matter for the US-led transatlantic alliance that has existed since the end of the second world war, Nato.

Nato is a military alliance, with a HQ in Brussels, a central command and control structure, running a huge force of soldiers and equipment from more than 20 countries. They conduct major training exercises annually throughout the region. The EU has no army, no common defence policy and no common foreign policy. 

If Russia was to mount an aggressive campaign in the Baltics or along the Polish border, it would be Nato troops that would be confronting them. 

If the UK was to leave the EU, it would not make the slightest difference to its membership of NATO.

 

Cameron said that UK influence is greater these days than at any time since the low point of the Suez crisis in 1956 and attributes this in part to Europe. Not true. The UK does not have military forces remotely comparable to what it had in 1956 or even 10 years ago.

It has influence through being a permanent member of the UN security council and leaving the EU would not affect that. 

But as always the dominant force in western security is the US. All other countries, including the UK, are by comparison bit players. Whether the UK is in or out of the EU would not alter that fact.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/09/is-david-cameron-right-leaving-eu-brexit-increase-risk-war

Good article. This 'being in the EU keeps us all safe' by the likes of Cameron is plainly a load of old bollocks.

 

I doubt the Scandinavian or other citizens who are not part of  EU have spent the last thirty years living in fear of being invaded by France.

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18 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Oh for fuck sake. Why would you say such a thing. It's so obviously untrue. 

No.

 

It's very easy. Search this thread to find examples of me using the peace argument as a reason for the UK to remain (as opposed to when I've used it as an argument against the disintegration of the EU) and I'll admit I'm wrong.  Until then...

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40 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No.

 

It's very easy. Search this thread to find examples of me using the peace argument as a reason for the UK to remain (as opposed to when I've used it as an argument against the disintegration of the EU) and I'll admit I'm wrong.  Until then...

I already did that before I replied, of course. I wouldn't have called you out for telling porkies if I hadn't just read you saying it. Before I share the post, I want you to answer one question, do you know what Ipse Dixit is? Do you realise that you typing 'no' doesn't make it so. You seem to believe that things are true because you've said them.

 

Anyway, in the full knowledge that you'll not actually answer that question, and in the knowledge that you'll now try to pretend that the stated benefits of staying in an organisation aren't reason for not leaving the organisation - as anything will be more palatable than just holding your hands up and saying 'huh, fair enough' - I'll post it anyway, but before I do, why didn't you just admit it? If you think that the organisation makes it impossible to go to war, why wouldn't you just admit that - as you did in the post that I'm about to share - it is one of the benefits of staying in the EU and not leaving it. It's absolutely weird that people box themselves into these corners. I'm actually rolling my eyes at what will be a painful response about how it doesn't mean what it says and how I'm a cunt and yadda fucking yadda. This is all so fucking tedious, Angry. If you think it, just say it. 

 

In response to the question 'what are the benefits of STAYING in the EU' which is to say, not leaving (surely, please, just accept that staying is the opposite to leaving when talking about membership of the EU, otherwise just call me a cunt and I can forget this entire thing) you replied talking about the impossibility of war. So to say you've not used it regarding the UK's membership of the EU is - being generous - forgetfulness. You keep doing this. You keep pretending you don't hold positions you clearly do. You do it with Corbyn and you've done it again. Anyway...

 

On 08/10/2017 at 01:01, sho' nuff said:

What are the benefits of staying in the EU?.

On 08/10/2017 at 01:01, AngryOfTuebrook said:

28 countries who can't/won't resort to war to settle their differences.

That's pretty clear, but if not, here's another one.

On 17/06/2016 at 20:40, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Membership of the EU pretty much makes war between Member States impossible [...] There may be good reasons for wanting the UK to leave the EU, but everyone who votes should first understand what is at stake and try to decide whether they want to throw it away cheaply.

 

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19 hours ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Since we’ve been in the EU, we’ve been to war with Iraq and Argentina plus interventions in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Kuwait. The idea that the EU has led to peace is just propaganda. 

Here’s a fact for you. In 2020, every farm animal in Europe was subsidised by about €100 by the EU tax payer whereas the equivalent EU aid to actual people in sub Saharan Africa was about €1.30 per person. Do you honestly think that is defendable as a policy  ? 

In the meantime the Johnson Govt have just slashed the international aid budget so it looks like Brexiteers don't give a fuck about sub Saharan Africa or farm subsidies unless they own a farm, of course

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9 minutes ago, mattyq said:

In the meantime the Johnson Govt have just slashed the international aid budget so it looks like Brexiteers don't give a fuck about sub Saharan Africa or farm subsidies unless they own a farm, of course

Yeah of course 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

One of the first things the Government   did post leaving the EU was to scrap the single farm payment. Even a right wing Tory government with an 80 seat majority couldn’t justify paying billions to rich landowners just becuase they owned a farm. Meanwhile the EU keeps writing the cheques. 

Yeah, that's interesting, seeing as they spend approx £3 Billion on subsidising the farmers

This Government fucks up everything it touches but one thing it is very efficient at is funnelling huge amounts of public cash to their cronies and backers

But Africa...

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I think it's absolutely nailed on that the EU has been a force for peace and stability in Europe since it's inception

I don't think the UK leaving the EU is going to make it more likely we will go to war with an EU member although I wouldn't put it past Johnson playing with gunboats in the Channel or around Gib as he's a stupid cunt

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3 minutes ago, mattyq said:

I think it's absolutely nailed on that the EU has been a force for peace and stability in Europe since it's inception

I don't think the UK leaving the EU is going to make it more likely we will go to war with an EU member although I wouldn't put it past Johnson playing with gunboats in the Channel or around Gib as he's a stupid cunt

Yep, for sure. Honestly, I’m bored of this entire thing. It’s an argument that has no relevance. We’ve left, we need to get on with making the best of it. 

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13 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yep, for sure. Honestly, I’m bored of this entire thing. It’s an argument that has no relevance. We’ve left, we need to get on with making the best of it. 

No, we need to revolt and get it overturned because it was all based on lies and racism 

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1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

Yes lies. I’ve not clicked on that link but are you disputing it? 

No I'm not but the link proves the lies we're from both camps and as Osborne was the then Chancellor so his words possessed more gravitas.

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21 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yep, for sure. Honestly, I’m bored of this entire thing. It’s an argument that has no relevance. We’ve left, we need to get on with making the best of it. 

Well, I sort of agree but then I think there;s no way that's going to happen with this shitstain of a Government we have 

Then I think the referendum was lost 5 years ago and this argument is still going on and there's a reason for that... even with the best Govt in the world making the most of deliberately cutting yourself off from the largest market in the world is going to be incredibly hard

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17 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

No, we need to revolt and get it overturned because it was all based on lies and racism 

Fingers crossed, but I just don't see it. And the thing is, the public seem to be even more in favour of it now than then. I fear it's a losing battle on this one. I was talking to one of my German mates about this, and he's quite a forceful guy when it comes to letting his view on the UK leaving the EU be known, and I had to agree with pretty much everything he said except that the reality is that the benefits - and of course, there are some - are being trumpeted and it's working. I just can't see a return. He wants to see a United Stated of Europe lead by Germany... so, ya know, I'm not sure 'bout that one either.

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4 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Fingers crossed, but I just don't see it. And the thing is, the public seem to be even more in favour of it now than then. I fear it's a losing battle on this one. I was talking to one of my German mates about this, and he's quite a forceful guy when it comes to letting his view on the UK leaving the EU be known, and I had to agree with pretty much everything he said except that the reality is that the benefits - and of course, there are some - are being trumpeted and it's working. I just can't see a return. He wants to see a United Stated of Europe lead by Germany... so, ya know, I'm not sure 'bout that one either.

Both the Tory and Labour Party campaigned to stay in the EU before the referendum.The position of both parties are now the complete opposite, neither main party would campaign to rejoin the European Union so the vote would in all probability be even more in favour of leave this time around. 

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Surely the question would be, would the EU have the UK back? 

 

The amount of hoops we'd have to jump through makes it a near impossibility in the short to medium term. Post-Johnson would we even qualify with the economy possibly not in any shape to meet the criteria?

 

So who gives a toss how leave voters would vote, they won't even have the opportunity.

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13 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Surely the question would be, would the EU have the UK back? 

 

The amount of hoops we'd have to jump through makes it a near impossibility in the short to medium term. Post-Johnson would we even qualify with the economy possibly not in any shape to meet the criteria?

 

So who gives a toss how leave voters would vote, they won't even have the opportunity.

In a heartbeat.

 

 

Ask a leave voter "Why did you vote leave?" it's quite the pantomime. 

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15 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

In a heartbeat.

 

 

Ask a leave voter "Why did you vote leave?" it's quite the pantomime. 

Easy answer, to limit cheap eu labour.  Wage suppression is no pantomime. 

 

As for another EU vote, Millibands opinion below is probably not to far away from the current offical Labour party position. As the Tories are now obviously pro Brexit the only major (ish) political party who would now advise rejoining the EU are the libs, so in truth the result would now be a landslide to the stay out vote.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

Has Ed Miliband really embraced Brexit, or is he just worried about the 53% of the vote that Doncaster gave to the Tories and the Brexit party at the last election?

Probably more of the latter if ive got my cynical hat on. I think he's a politician being a politician but he's shrewd enough to see the sky hasn't fallen in after Brexit and a lot of low to medium paid workers are receiving pay increases and as labour is in short supply people are feeling secure in their jobs.

 

Not sure the upward trajectory will continue when furlough ends and the economy goes tits up though.

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8 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Hahahah. The context helps make my point not hinder it. So… what about the first quote? Exactly as expected. Exactly as expected. There is no point taking to you because even when it’s clear and right in front of you, you either ignore it or don’t admit it. 

Nice try, but you're still wrong. The context makes my point, not yours: the bit that you - pesky little cherrypicker that you are - chose to omit was that the post was in response to the suggestion that the EU was bad for Europe as a whole (comparable to the Nazis, no less) and that we'd be better off without it.

 

As for the other quote, the context of that discussion is lost because the mad bastard Sho'nuff has been erased from TLW history (Cancel Culture gone mad, if you ask me) so your "evidence" is inconclusive, at best.

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10 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

You keep pretending you don't hold positions you clearly do. You do it with Corbyn and you've done it again. 

This is interesting.  I'm clearly forgetful about which positions I hold, so maybe you'll need to remind me  (since you obviously know me better than I do myself).

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