Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, Numero said:

That’s fine, and I totally accept that. I respect that. Getting it wrong is part of being human. Learning from a thing after it happened is what matters. 
 

As for your comment regarding criticism of Starmer. I think it depends on how much policy input he had. In mid-2017, at the earliest, he was saying that Labour must accept the result of the referendum and get on with selling their vision of Brexit. Judging those comments, now with the benefit of hindsight, that looks to be absolutely right and how Labour should have done things. So the question is how much input into the shift towards an unclear policy did Starmer have. We both thought that policy was the fairest but it is clearly (with the benefit of hindsight, anyway) not a vote winner. If he was the architect of it, then he definitely deserves some criticism. If he stuck to his original position of ‘Brexit is done, argue about how we leave’ but was overruled, then not really. That’s just him being right and us being wrong. 
 

 

I dont think any of this can really be laid at Corbyn or Starmers door. They are imo well down the list in the blame games. If you're going to pick on Corbyn for the mess of us leaving the eu then its plausible and equally ridiculous to shine a light on Starmer. They are both imo well down the list on the blame game.  

[Lario]

So does this deal proclude the UK from agreeing one of those properous WTO deals?

 

Or can the WTO ones still be agreed?

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, Dr Nowt said:

Thank fuck it wasn’t a No Deal, right now, in the middle of a global pandemic. Almost mind-bendingly dangerous. Only even relative crumb of comfort. Other than that, a colossal, self-perpetuated gunshot wound to our own knackers.
 

That the Hard Brexit mob are all bleating about this deal already is the only slight consolation. Having to listen to a gang of truly heinous cunts smugly boasting about getting what they wanted, on top of all the rest of it, would be above and beyond the call of duty.
 

On the flipside, this will be like Labour/Corbyn/antisemitism in that it will just go on and on and be fucking argued about forever, even by the people who were desperate for and ultimately got Brexit. Which won’t be at all tedious. ‘Get Brexit Done’ my hairy hoop.

All the above is unfortunately true  

[Rico1304]

11 minutes ago, Lario said:

So does this deal proclude the UK from agreeing one of those properous WTO deals?

 

Or can the WTO ones still be agreed?

The WTO are the default rules. Everywhere we don’t have a TA with is on WTO. 
 

 

[Gnasher]

2 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

If you voted leave then you are a proper cunt. 

 

 

I abstained and I still feel a cunt.  At least I'm fronting it 

[Numero Veinticinco]

23 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I dont think any of this can really be laid at Corbyn or Starmers door. They are imo well down the list in the blame games. If you're going to pick on Corbyn for the mess of us leaving the eu then its plausible and equally ridiculous to shine a light on Starmer. They are both imo well down the list on the blame game.  

I don't blame Corbyn for us leaving the EU. I blame him for his leadership of Labour during that time. 

[Lario]

15 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

The WTO are the default rules. Everywhere we don’t have a TA with is on WTO. 
 

 

Ah ok. Thanks.

 

So did the UK win? Is the NHS gonna be up £350m a week or whatever?

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, Numero said:

I don't blame Corbyn for us leaving the EU. I blame him for his leadership of Labour during that time. 

Well you can by then by that logic blame a lot of people. I thought he was the only politician in the country to offer a grown up argument to the uk leaving the uk. As did Starmer. You posted a video of Starmee the other day giving a fair and reasonable offering to the Brexit problem to Owen Jones. Corbyn and Starmer were joined at the hip and imo neither can be blamed but as I touched on before Corbyn seems the new anti semitism slur 

[Moo]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Because they would have voted for it rather than this 

Are you saying May's deal was particularly a hard Brexit?  It didn't pass because it wasn't hard enough for the ERG and May didn't have a majority.

Early indications are that what we are getting is a harder Brexit than May's version.

[Section_31]

Nothing about Brexit really made sense but it was a decision made by people's guts rather than their heads. Cummings and Farage tapped into decades' long fume by a lot of working class people felt their lives weren't going the way they felt they should, and gave them an avenue through which to kick the establishment in the balls.

 

Think about it, if you're from a northern or working class town and you feel like metropolitan England doesn't give a fuck about you, if you saw Blair, Clegg, and Cameron all on the podium united in a state of huge distress, you'd consider your leave vote a job well done. Then when Jame O'brien gets you on the radio and ambushes you about your knowledge of section 28 subsection 51 of the mastricht treaty to make you sound stupid, you'd feel equally vindicated.

 

If you voted leave because you felt you had nothing to lose and wanted to piss people off who did, Brexit was a gift. Much like Trump in the States. 

 

"Some people just like to see the world burn".

 

That being said, many undoubtedly believed the rule Britannia spiel, some were undoubtedly just racist, and many of the politicians and media types who latched onto it were just parasites. Johnson is the very worst of them. He believes in nothing.

[Trumo]

It's like torching your car because the headlight bulb's gone.

[Section_31]

7 minutes ago, Trumo said:

It's like torching your car because the headlight bulb's gone.

Dunno, maybe. A lot of the people who voted Brexit possibly don't feel they have much more to lose. If you live in some dying seaside town where the only place to work is B&M, five years from now the seaside town is still going to be dying and the only place to work will be B&M. Staying in or leaving the EU probably isn't going to change that.

[Rico1304]

53 minutes ago, Lario said:

Ah ok. Thanks.

 

So did the UK win? Is the NHS gonna be up £350m a week or whatever?

No.

No. 

[cloggypop]

It'll be working at B&M under much worse conditions of course. With less opportunity to fuck off somewhere else. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Some people probably had some semi-legitimate reasons for voting leave. 

 

But... 

 

There's two infamous cases that jump out, for me. The horrible cunt on the Channel 4 News vox pops the day after the referendum saying he's happy that leave won as we can get rid of all the Muslims now. And, Sunderland. Voting leave, including people employed by Nissan, even though they were told by their employer that to do so could put their jobs at risk. 

 

It's hard to get away from the belief that the leave vote was largely made because of racism and xenophobia and with a large disregard for the real life consequences of their decision. 

[Gnasher]

29 minutes ago, Moo said:

Are you saying May's deal was particularly a hard Brexit?  It didn't pass because it wasn't hard enough for the ERG and May didn't have a majority.

Early indications are that what we are getting is a harder Brexit than May's version.

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying. If the nostradamus sages were so sure of this outcome May's deal would have sailed through. Easy in hindsight which is partly why Johnson throws the slur at Starmer.

[Section_31]

9 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

It'll be working at B&M under much worse conditions of course. With less opportunity to fuck off somewhere else. 

Would they have fucked off somewhere else though? Much is made of the freedom of movement thing but how many working class people take advantage of it? Save possibly for gangsters from London and bankers who move to Frankfurt? 

 

I realise you have and the likes of RIS, but how many red wall voters would ever consider something like that an option?

[cloggypop]

Just now, Section_31 said:

Would they have fucked off somewhere else though? Much is made of the freedom of movement thing but how many working class people take advantage of it? Save possibly for gangsters from London and bankers who move to Frankfurt? 

Well, I did. Know plenty of others who did the same. 

[Gnasher]

9 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

Some people probably had some semi-legitimate reasons for voting leave. 

 

Not wrong 

https://www.bruegel.org/2020/11/the-scarring-effect-of-covid-19-youth-unemployment-in-europe/

 

9 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

 

But... 

 

There's two infamous cases that jump out, for me. The horrible cunt on the Channel 4 News vox pops the day after the referendum saying he's happy that leave won as we can get rid of all the Muslims now. And, Sunderland. Voting leave, including people employed by Nissan, even though they were told by their employer that to do so could put their jobs at risk. 

 

It's hard to get away from the belief that the leave vote was largely made because of racism and xenophobia and with a large disregard for the real life consequences of their decision. 

 

[Bjornebye]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

I abstained and I still feel a cunt.  At least I'm fronting it 

Admirable. 

[Lario]

7 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

Not wrong 

https://www.bruegel.org/2020/11/the-scarring-effect-of-covid-19-youth-unemployment-in-europe/

 

 

I reckon the UK will be delighted to have such numbers in the coming years.

 

Can't see anything but trouble unfortunately.

[skend04]

Imagine being such a bunch of cunts that you wouldn't keep membership of Erasmus for UK and EU student because they wanted membership fees upfront. Obviously if you're rich you'll be able to send your kids wherever you want. However if you're from a struggling household, well fuck you. Just another attack on the working classes, who went and voted Tory.

[Bjornebye]

"Get em out!" 

 

Thats not how it works

 

"woke lefty twat" 

[Gnasher]

17 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Admirable. 

I called it wrong. My core beliefs are anti eu. I didnt vote out because I thought the short term economic impact would affect our youth. If the vote was tomorrow I would vote remain then ask the first person I saw outside the polling station to kick me in the bollocks. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

It looks like some revised form of EHIC/health insurance will continue as part of the deal. 

 

That's not too bad, I guess. It's just the non-EU passport queues to deal with then. Oh...and coronavirus.