Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Boss said:

How are you going to change the direction of the country if you can't win an election? No good having principles if you can't get into a position to implement them.

Better win the election, then.

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, Dougie Do'ins said:

Born in Old Roan in 1970 according to Wiki.

Yeah just read that, but brought up in Warrington. He's a wool. 

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

I thought he was a manc. 

Bluenose. 

[Barrington Womble]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Bluenose. 

I knew he supported everton, I just wrongly thought he was from Manchester. 

[Dougie Do'ins]

3 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

Yeah just read that, but brought up in Warrington. He's a wool. 

Tough crowd.

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Bluenose. 

Fuck him then.

[sir roger]

What's the obsession with Corbyn's age ? It could be argued that the most stressful position in politics is POTUS and the three main contenders for that are 78,76 and 73. Corbyn has a schedule that would test most guys much younger than him and despite the 15 year disparity in ages between him and Johnson I would say it is 50:50 who pegs it first looking at their overall level of fitness.

 

It just looks like an excuse to people who aren't keen on him to be honest. I hope he wins the upcoming election and we can evaluate the runners and riders in a government stint leading to him passing the baton on in due course.

 

What some call baggage others see as following his principles over many years and the problem I have with most of the potential candidates is that they are either too wishy-washy centrists and would go back to the old ways asap

( Starmer, Thornberry or Benn ) not much younger ( McDonnell or Gardiner ) or too callow ( Rayner, Long-Bailey or Pidcock ) or absolute arseholes ( Watson )

[sir roger]

21 minutes ago, Boss said:

How are you going to change the direction of the country if you can't win an election? No good having principles if you can't get into a position to implement them.

No Labour candidate is going to win an election without any principles. The ' Anybody else but Corbyn would be 90% ahead of May or Johnson ' lobby are talking bollocks and I am sure they were watching Thornberry through their fingers on QT.

[sir roger]

20 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

Yeah just read that, but brought up in Warrington. He's a wool. 

What colour's his fucking wheelie-bin.

[Barrington Womble]

11 minutes ago, sir roger said:

What's the obsession with Corbyn's age ? It could be argued that the most stressful position in politics is POTUS and the three main contenders for that are 78,76 and 73. Corbyn has a schedule that would test most guys much younger than him and despite the 15 year disparity in ages between him and Johnson I would say it is 50:50 who pegs it first looking at their overall level of fitness.

 

It just looks like an excuse to people who aren't keen on him to be honest. I hope he wins the upcoming election and we can evaluate the runners and riders in a government stint leading to him passing the baton on in due course.

 

What some call baggage others see as following his principles over many years and the problem I have with most of the potential candidates is that they are either too wishy-washy centrists and would go back to the old ways asap

( Starmer, Thornberry or Benn ) not much younger ( McDonnell or Gardiner ) or too callow ( Rayner, Long-Bailey or Pidcock ) or absolute arseholes ( Watson )

I don't care if he's 70 or 60 or 80. I do care though if his mind is agile enough. Watching him last night (and not for the 1st time) it's like he has no cohesion of thought. He loses his way too often. Maybe he's always been that way or the jeering from the Tories just knocked him out of his stride. But it made him act old and certainly not inspiring. But I do also think he's unelectable regardless of that, I just don't think he will get enough of the middle ground voters to win a GE - it might not be fair, because a lot of the reason is because of the hatchet job large parts of the press have done on him, but it is a reality of the situation. 

[Boss]

19 minutes ago, sir roger said:

No Labour candidate is going to win an election without any principles. The ' Anybody else but Corbyn would be 90% ahead of May or Johnson ' lobby are talking bollocks and I am sure they were watching Thornberry through their fingers on QT.

A lot of socialists place their principles on a pedestal above their ability to create real tangible change. They'd rather lose with their principles intact, than win by compromising those principles. I'm not saying a Labour leader shouldn't have principles. I'm saying, at what point do you prioritise winning over your principles?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Boss said:

A lot of socialists place their principles on a pedestal above their ability to create real tangible change. They'd rather lose with their principles intact, than win by compromising those principles. I'm not saying a Labour leader shouldn't have principles. I'm saying, at what point do you prioritise winning over your principles?

A lot of Socialists would cheerfully abolish the Monarchy, but we're not running on that platform. 

 

Labour's policies are far from extreme: they play well in the Tory heartlands.

 

The idea that democratic Socialism is some kind of minority cult interest is just nonsense. 

[M_B]

1 hour ago, Chocoholic said:

God forbid, indeed, because, it's doubtful there'd be actually anything left in 2024. The NHS would be a distant memory. There'd be thousands more homeless and sleeping on the streets. Tens of thousands of jobs lost and an explosion of zero hours contracts and no workers' rights for those who still have one. A huge surge in suicides among  the unemployed as they're told to live on £20 a month on universal credit.

 

The country will be on its fucking knees.

It's alright. We'll have opioids.

[lifetime fan]

I don’t know why people think Burnham is the answer. 

 

He’s put his hat in the ring twice and came no where twice! 

[Jairzinho]

57 minutes ago, sir roger said:

What colour's his fucking wheelie-bin.

Beige.

[Bjornebye]

42 minutes ago, lifetime fan said:

He’s put his hat in the ring twice and came no where twice! 

Must have had a few garys both times. 

 

 

 

On a serious note, who do you suggest? 

[lifetime fan]

12 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Must have had a few garys both times. 

 

 

 

On a serious note, who do you suggest? 

 

 

Said over 12 months ago I’d like to see Starmer take over when Corbyn chooses to step down. 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, lifetime fan said:

 

 

Said over 12 months ago I’d like to see Starmer take over when Corbyn chooses to step down. 

Yeah and whilst he doesn't use his knighthood I bet the likes of the daily heil will. 

[littletedwest]

1 hour ago, sir roger said:

What colour's his fucking wheelie-bin.

Black, he lives around the corner from me. Which makes him a wool

[Red Shift]

Britain is heading for a no deal ousting. Europe is not going to negotiate a further deal - its last chance saloon time, so after the crash-out, there will be a legal wrangle over whether the Conservatives broke the law over the new brexit bill. 

 

I believe the courts will throw it out. Why? Because the EU gave Johnson no wriggle room, and he can plead that his hands were tied.

 

There is no doubt in my mind, that trade negotiations are underway behind the scenes already.

[Jairzinho]

10 hours ago, moof said:

I disagree. People are loyal to Corbyn so far as they support his politics, which are radically different to anything labour has offered up in decades - and, honestly, radically different to anyone proposed to take his job. As for these internal mechanisms that will win an election... well, we could go back to the days of tepid marginal “centre” politics but what a fucking shame that would be when we have a golden opportunity to complete change the direction of this country 

I don't even think it would work anyway. 

[Moo]

I have a lot of time for Burnham for obvious reasons, and I know someone who used to work with him and loved him, he sounds like a really good fella.  But he's been useless as Mayor of Manchester.  He goes completely under the radar and when he does speak he's usually complaining that someone else is stopping him from making progress.  That might be true but have a look at his record on public tansport/traffic in Manchester, it was one of his priorities, probably his biggest priority.  He seems to just be sitting on his hands instead of making things happen. 

[Jose Jones]

25 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I don't even think it would work anyway. 

I think I disagree.  I reckon there was a big movement away from the neoliberal consensus a couple of years ago, but the time has passed.

 

Whilst it led to the rise of Corbyn and Sanders on the left side of politics, the two old socialists didn't quite have the clout to get over the line and unfortunately it wrought Trump and Brexit as the right wing managed to convince enough people that it was foreigners to blame. 

 

I think now there's enough of the centre right voters that have seen what this bollocks has brought that a Blair or Obama on either side of the Atlantic would romp home by about a billion percent.

[Bobby Hundreds]

What I don't get is the politics of corporations and increasing profit at any cost, dismantling public services, creating billionaires and trillionaire companies whilst stagnating wages, diminishing workers rights and to top it off  doing our best to make the planet unsustainable for human life. Why is this a good trajectory for politics to continue on. Seems to me the status quo is a fucking disaster happening and the dreams of the republicans and Tories even worse.

[Jairzinho]

1 hour ago, Jose Jones said:

I think I disagree.  I reckon there was a big movement away from the neoliberal consensus a couple of years ago, but the time has passed.

 

Whilst it led to the rise of Corbyn and Sanders on the left side of politics, the two old socialists didn't quite have the clout to get over the line and unfortunately it wrought Trump and Brexit as the right wing managed to convince enough people that it was foreigners to blame. 

 

I think now there's enough of the centre right voters that have seen what this bollocks has brought that a Blair or Obama on either side of the Atlantic would romp home by about a billion percent.

 

I think the problem is that this centre right also has centre right social views, and they won't be voting for a Blair or Obama type figure. They'd clean up in rich areas, steal back votes from "moderate" Tories and Lib Dems, but they'd be eviscerated in Scotland and the North, and I don't even think they could do enough in the middle England marginals.

 

I don't think the Brexit Party is going to win many seats at the next election, but I think they'll get a huge number of votes which will ensure that a Labour party of ANY variety couldn't win there. 

 

Obviously everything is up in the air whilst the shambles of Brexit continues. It makes all this so difficult to predict. However, I still just don't see how a Blair type figure appeals to enough people. The truth might just be that two party politics, and its accompanying voting system, is dead. 

 

Society has fractured considerably, and the parties have reflected that, it simply isn't feasible to find enough representation in two parties. How does Labour appeal to the working class in the North as well as the middle class in London? I have no idea.

[Jose Jones]

18 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

I think the problem is that this centre right also has centre right social views, and they won't be voting for a Blair or Obama type figure. They'd clean up in rich areas, steal back votes from "moderate" Tories and Lib Dems, but they'd be eviscerated in Scotland and the North, and I don't even think they could do enough in the middle England marginals.

 

I don't think the Brexit Party is going to win many seats at the next election, but I think they'll get a huge number of votes which will ensure that a Labour party of ANY variety couldn't win there. 

 

Obviously everything is up in the air whilst the shambles of Brexit continues. It makes all this so difficult to predict. However, I still just don't see how a Blair type figure appeals to enough people. The truth might just be that two party politics, and its accompanying voting system, is dead. 

 

Society has fractured considerably, and the parties have reflected that, it simply isn't feasible to find enough representation in two parties. How does Labour appeal to the working class in the North as well as the middle class in London? I have no idea.

I’m talking Blair at the start of his career, here, not current day Blair. He came in on a massive wave of hope and popularity. 

 

I think the left, be that Labour or another party, needs to offer two things; hope and competence.

 

The hope gets in the young and the idealistic, the competence gets the middle ground voters.

 

Middle class voters in London are some of the most left leaning in the country, by the way, it’s the middle class elsewhere you need to worry about.