Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[skend04]

41 minutes ago, 16613 said:

I’ve never understood why you would remove no deal from the process, it’s a default position and an excellent bargaining chip, I mean you wouldn’t go into a car dealership and tell them you cannot leave without buying a car. Obviously you need a strong negotiator, and be prepared for brinksmanship. 

 

Tories are shitting themselves again and they’ll put self preservation before the country and the people, sort of their default position as with most politicians. 

 

May hung up the white flag on day one, maybe someone else will get tough and actually get us a good deal. It might not look pretty from the outside but it’s the result that counts. 

Jesus! 

 

"You better give us something otherwise we're going to blow our brains out!"

 

3 years on and still there's swathes of the public that just don't seem to have met reality.

[Davelfc]

16 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Jesus! 

 

"You better give us something otherwise we're going to blow our brains out!"

 

3 years on and still there's swathes of the public that just don't seem to have met reality.

The reality looks like we’re leaving on a no deal, still you never know. When your negotiator was as weak as wet tissue you were getting nothing. 

 

And its Mr Christ to you.

[cloggypop]

3 minutes ago, 16613 said:

The reality looks like we’re leaving on a no deal, still you never know. When your negotiator was as weak as wet tissue you were getting nothing. 

 

And its Mr Christ to you.

It's not just the negotiator though is it? They were shite, sure, but so is our position. We are small they are big. Perhaps they don't actually need us more than we need them. 

[skend04]

Sir Kevin Barron
Ronnie Campbell
Jim Fitzpatrick
Caroline Flint
Stephen Hepburn
Kate Hoey
John Mann
Graham Stringer

 

These lot have just voted against the no no-deal motion essentially allowing for a Tory proroguing of parliament. When will Labour withdraw the whip from these serial headcases?

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I think too many people are hoping the EU back down and offer a better deal. They surely can't believe that leaving with a 'No Deal' is a good idea. The EU won't be offering anything that fucks itself over just to keep the UK on board, they are far more capable at this negotiating lark. Plus if the UK leave without a deal the EU will look at other avenues at expanding, whereas the UK will be begging countries for a deal, not an ideal scenario. The begging will obviously happen behind the scenes, whilst those who want a hard Brexit will still be drawing rainbows and Unicorns and dreaming about the Empire long lost. 

I don't think we can read into today's vote too much. Tories just trying to save their party realising a new leader would have his/her hands tied from the off. The nearer the new Brexit date looms they'll be back to arguing and no further forward on the issues which divide them all on just about every Brexit plan uttered. 

[Davelfc]

3 hours ago, cloggypop said:

It's not just the negotiator though is it? They were shite, sure, but so is our position. We are small they are big. Perhaps they don't actually need us more than we need them. 

You could be right, although a population of over 60 million isn’t a market the sane would ignore. Will be interesting to see what direction things go in over the next few months. Stay or leave our politicians have ensured we are a laughing stock. 

 

Yes time the time to be firm was at the start, almost three years of that strong and stable twat is enough to drive anyone insane. If all of this ultimately destroys the tories or causes a shake up of our political system then it will have been worth it. Right now I’d take the Monster Raving Loony party who would probably run the country better.

 

Crazy summer ahead, polarised electorate on a single issue while hundreds of important issues are ignored. 

[mattyq]

5 hours ago, 16613 said:

I’ve never understood why you would remove no deal from the process, it’s a default position and an excellent bargaining chip, I mean you wouldn’t go into a car dealership and tell them you cannot leave without buying a car. Obviously you need a strong negotiator, and be prepared for brinksmanship. 

 

Tories are shitting themselves again and they’ll put self preservation before the country and the people, sort of their default position as with most politicians. 

 

May hung up the white flag on day one, maybe someone else will get tough and actually get us a good deal. It might not look pretty from the outside but it’s the result that counts. 

Leaving the EU isn't much like going into a car dealership is it, really?

No deal is insane and everybody knows this is the case. 

[Davelfc]

3 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Leaving the EU isn't much like going into a car dealership is it, really?

No deal is insane and everybody knows this is the case. 

No, fair point. But taking away your default option means you’re weakening your negotiating hand. In any other negotiating scenario this would be blatantly obvious but because this is such a divisive issue it’s become crazy. People resorting to insults and name calling, it’s shameful really and I’m not on either side. 

 

The sooner it’s sorted one way or another the better because I’ve certainly seen some ugly comments from people I’d expect better from. The possible public execution of the twat that allowed the referendum might just unite us all. I fear the division will be around for years to come and judging from the comments just on here, the insults will get more and more ridiculous. 

 

My 5 year old granddaughter isn’t that childish.

[cloggypop]

1 hour ago, 16613 said:

 a population of over 60 million isn’t a market the sane would ignore. 

It's fairly small when you are trying to hold a market of over 500 million to account like. It's just not an equal starter as a bargaining point. 

[Davelfc]

22 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

It's fairly small when you are trying to hold a market of over 500 million to account like. It's just not an equal starter as a bargaining point. 

I get that, but it’s a market that many would be glad of. 10% of the total market is not an insignificant number. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

6 hours ago, 16613 said:

I’ve never understood why you would remove no deal from the process, it’s a default position and an excellent bargaining chip, I mean you wouldn’t go into a car dealership and tell them you cannot leave without buying a car. Obviously you need a strong negotiator, and be prepared for brinksmanship. 

 

Tories are shitting themselves again and they’ll put self preservation before the country and the people, sort of their default position as with most politicians. 

 

May hung up the white flag on day one, maybe someone else will get tough and actually get us a good deal. It might not look pretty from the outside but it’s the result that counts. 

Leaving a car dealership without a car means you're in the same state after negotiations as you were before.

 

Leaving the EU with no deal means tens of thousands of jobs lost and billions wiped off GDP: a period of even worse austerity lasting for decades.

 

The analogy doesn't really work. A better analogy for No Deal would be going into a car showroom and threatening to smash yourself in the face with a hammer if the salesman doesn’t give you everything you want.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

6 hours ago, magicrat said:

But he has tried a no-confidence vote and failed and cant see how he can engineer a GE so when does plan B of the party's policy kick in ? This is why it's contradictory and just kicks the can down the road on a second referendum

The no-confidence vote isn't a one-shot thing. Labour can bring one whenever they think the time is right.

 

They can't, of course, bring about a second referendum.  All they can do is what they are doing - argue increasingly that it needs to be an option. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, 16613 said:

You could be right, although a population of over 60 million isn’t a market the sane would ignore. Will be interesting to see what direction things go in over the next few months. Stay or leave our politicians have ensured we are a laughing stock. 

 

Yes time the time to be firm was at the start, almost three years of that strong and stable twat is enough to drive anyone insane. If all of this ultimately destroys the tories or causes a shake up of our political system then it will have been worth it. Right now I’d take the Monster Raving Loony party who would probably run the country better.

 

Crazy summer ahead, polarised electorate on a single issue while hundreds of important issues are ignored. 

Especially with the NHS on the table.

 

Anyway, the reason May hasn't got a deal to please the fucking sociopaths on the right wing of the Tory Party isn't about strength or weakness; it's because the ERG loons are driving us towards a catastrophic (for us) but hugely lucrative (for them and their mates) by making demands that they know the EU cannot accept.

[Davelfc]

14 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Leaving a car dealership without a car means you're in the same state after negotiations as you were before.

 

Leaving the EU with no deal means tens of thousands of jobs lost and billions wiped off GDP: a period of even worse austerity lasting for decades.

 

The analogy doesn't really work. A better analogy for No Deal would be going into a car showroom and threatening to smash yourself in the face with a hammer if the salesman doesn’t give you everything you want.

If it worked for you before.....

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, 16613 said:

 

Crazy summer ahead, polarised electorate on a single issue while hundreds of important issues are ignored. 

And if any party tries to get past that, everyone says they're "sitting on the fence".

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 minute ago, 16613 said:

If it worked for you before.....

Do you mind? I was born this ugly!

[Red Phoenix]

It's almost like most of the Tory party are happy to fuck the entire country over and go running off to the US to line their pockets with one of the worst trade deals we've ever done. If it's not that it's probably something equally bad.

 

They're supposed to be split over the EU to whatever extent but they can't be allowing Corbyn's party to win a vote to help us stop no deal, maybe they're more bothered about the news being focused on him being stitched up as an anti-Semite so he has less chance of getting into Downing Street and causing their tax havens problems. Bunch of scum.

[Red Phoenix]

I don't know how I put new deal there instead of no deal, edited. Maybe so sick of the whole thing it's a stuggle to even focus and write properly on the subject. Or maybe my head's still boggled at the sight of so many Tories actually voting against stopping it from happening. No idea what their reason/excuse is and not sure if I'm bothered. The closer it gets maybe more of them will start defecting, especially if Johnson is about to become PM or has done that already by the time a similar vote is in place.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I've been thinking a bit more about the withdrawal negotiations. From the start, it's been framed (by the Tories and the media) as a hostile, confrontational thing; the sort of thing that would, arguably, justify a "tough" stance and brinkmanship. In reality, the EU and the UK have a lot of shared or reciprocal aims: continuing peace in Ireland; protecting rights of UK citizens living in the EU and vice versa; cooperation on security, criminal justice, scientific research, etc.; securing a mutually beneficial trade arrangement for the future: etc. Where there are conflicting interests - such as the "divorce bill" - these are comparatively minor bureaucratic details. Grown-ups could have sorted this out long ago.

 

Unfortunately, the whole thing, from the start, has been a thoroughly Tory process and Tories have always admired rudeness and intransigence to foreigners more than they admire competence.

[Mudface]

Yep. The whole thing has been embarrassing and jingoistic play to the shires. May and the Tories also fucked themselves over by hyping up their 'Iron Lady' and 'John Bull' credentials- the deal they actually got fell well short of the expectations they'd set.

 

The same thing's happening now, rather than taking heed of the exhortation not to 'waste time' on the latest extension, we've got this ridiculous leadership contest and a bunch of nonentities playing to the gallery saying they'll be renegotiating a deal the EU has repeatedly said can't be or won't be paying the 'divorce bill', which would effectively destroy our international reputation.

 

Still, at least the Tories are consistent in the way they put personal advancement above their party and their party's interests above the country's at every single opportunity. Bunch of fucking spivs.

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/13/parliament-is-out-of-options-to-stop-no-deal-brexit-tory-mp-oliver-letwin

 

We can discuss the timing of it all, but when no-deal hits jobs and living standards in their constituencies, what are the 21 Labour MPs, who either voted for no-deal or abstained, going to say to their constituents? 

[Strontium]

3 hours ago, skend04 said:

We can discuss the timing of it all, but when no-deal hits jobs and living standards in their constituencies, what are the 21 Labour MPs, who either voted for no-deal or abstained, going to say to their constituents? 

 

Probably just blame Nick Clegg, that's worked well for them in the past.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I see that the CHUKers are changing their name AGAIN! 

 

This time due to a dispute with change.org.

 

They will now be known as The Independent Group for Change. 

 

What a bunch of fucking amateurs. 

[Gnasher]

33 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

I see that the CHUKers are changing their name AGAIN! 

 

This time due to a dispute with change.org.

 

They will now be known as The Independent Group for Change. 

 

What a bunch of fucking amateurs. 

 

[moof]

Tinge FC