Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Strontium]

4 hours ago, viRdjil said:

Especially since the European election result confirmed that a lot of people did know what they were voting for IMO.

 

There you are overstating the importance of the European election result yet again.

 

17.4m people voted to Leave in the 2016 referendum, and then in the European election, 5.8m voted for parties committed to a No Deal Brexit.

 

What about the other 11.6m?

[aRdja]

35 minutes ago, Sixtimes Dog said:

 

There you are overstating the importance of the European election result yet again.

 

17.4m people voted to Leave in the 2016 referendum, and then in the European election, 5.8m voted for parties committed to a No Deal Brexit.

 

What about the other 11.6m?

I was highlighting the importance of both votes; eu referendum and the european election. 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

6 hours ago, magicrat said:

Brexit hasn't been delivered 3 years down the line and whether or not it should have been is a fair point. Delivering it now when all indicators suggest Remain would now win is compounding the issue. The 2016 result is now unsafe and the electorate should have a chance to reconsider. Given we are likely to have had 2 General Elections before Brexit is resolved it's crazy the referendum result is not put back to the people. Not doing so is a worse abuse of democracy than ploughing ahead .

Out of interest, where is the evidence that suggest Remain will win?

 

There are massive number of people who didn’t turn out to vote in the recent European Elections. Personally I wouldn’t say anything indicates that at the moment. 

[magicrat]

10 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Out of interest, where is the evidence that suggest Remain will win?

 

There are massive number of people who didn’t turn out to vote in the recent European Elections. Personally I wouldn’t say anything indicates that at the moment. 

The polls consistently show Remain ahead.  

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

 

Yes the EE with a 40% turnout are not a good barometer of the result of another referendum

[skend04]

9 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

So how are Labour bullshitting anyone?

6 tests, 5 tests, jobs first Brexit, pushing for a second referendum if Tories block a GE, getting the same benefits outside as being in the SM, we will get the EU to renegotiate the WA. All opaqueness and obfuscation designed to mislead both remainers and leavers. There's a poll commissioned by the Independent a few months back which shows 40% of Labour voters see the party as Leave and 30% see it as Remain (or vice versa). That's not sustainable for voters or for the party. 

 

Anyways I'm going to leave it at that, there must be something more productive to do with my time than read the latest EU news in the morning. 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

55 minutes ago, magicrat said:

The polls consistently show Remain ahead.  

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

 

Yes the EE with a 40% turnout are not a good barometer of the result of another referendum

Polls only have a small percentage of the electorate comment on them.

 

How many have you been questioned about since turning 18? Me, 0. 

 

I personally think polls have lost all credibility since the Referendum.

 

If voting was made compulsory then I’d imagine we would we see very different results than what the polls are suggesting. 

 

 

 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

2 minutes ago, skend04 said:

6 tests, 5 tests, jobs first Brexit, pushing for a second referendum if Tories block a GE, getting the same benefits outside as being in the SM, we will get the EU to renegotiate the WA. All opaqueness and obfuscation designed to mislead both remainers and leavers. There's a poll commissioned by the Independent a few months back which shows 40% of Labour voters see the party as Leave and 30% see it as Remain (or vice versa). That's not sustainable for voters or for the party. 

 

Anyways I'm going to leave it at that, there must be something more productive to do with my time than read the latest EU news in the morning. 

I wasn’t asked about his poll where 40% of Labour voters said the party was Leave and 30% said it was Remain. Where you? Was anybody else on here? 

 

It’s like those twitter polls. Pointless. 

[mattyq]

On 10/06/2019 at 12:20, Mook said:

I said they were struggling to lay a glove, not that they hadn't.

 

Let's be honest, a half decent opposition would've fucked this tory shambles into next century.

I'm inclined to agree

The one caveat is that Brexit has completely distorted traditional voting patterns but Labour have been a shambles... the Brexit policy is a fucking disgrace

[AngryOfTuebrook]

57 minutes ago, skend04 said:

6 tests, 5 tests, jobs first Brexit, pushing for a second referendum if Tories block a GE, getting the same benefits outside as being in the SM, we will get the EU to renegotiate the WA. All opaqueness and obfuscation designed to mislead both remainers and leavers. There's a poll commissioned by the Independent a few months back which shows 40% of Labour voters see the party as Leave and 30% see it as Remain (or vice versa). That's not sustainable for voters or for the party. 

 

Anyways I'm going to leave it at that, there must be something more productive to do with my time than read the latest EU news in the morning. 

That misrepresentation of Labour’s policy is more akin to bullshit than Labour’s policy itself.

 

To get back to the original point, the Tory candidates claiming that they can renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement are lying; Labour are not.

[Jairzinho]

1 hour ago, mattyq said:

I'm inclined to agree

The one caveat is that Brexit has completely distorted traditional voting patterns but Labour have been a shambles... the Brexit policy is a fucking disgrace

What should have been their Brexit policy, in your opinion?

[Gnasher]

24 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

What should have been their Brexit policy, in your opinion?

Good question. The answer is obvious. Well sort of..

 

1.  Come all out for remain... but but hang on that would piss of labour  voters in traditional heartlands who voted leave, and the last thing the labour party needs is another Scotland, 

 

2.  Labour  come out behind leave but  then that would open a absoulte shitstorm amongst the labour voting remainers and push the party into UKIP grounds. 

 

3..Take as much time as possible  whilst the opposition tears themselves apart and keep cards very close to chest.

 

 

I'm no politician but id go for 3.

 

[mattyq]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

What should have been their Brexit policy, in your opinion?

It should be the policy pushed by John McDonald and Emily Thornberry and Keir Starmer - a second ref

[mattyq]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Good question. The answer is obvious. Well sort of..

 

1.  Come all out for remain... but but hang on that would piss of labour  voters in traditional heartlands who voted leave, and the last thing the labour party needs is another Scotland, 

 

2.  Labour  come out behind leave but  then that would open a absoulte shitstorm amongst the labour voting remainers and push the party into UKIP grounds. 

 

3..Take as much time as possible  whilst the opposition tears themselves apart and keep cards very close to chest.

 

 

I'm no politician but id go for 3.

 

Labour were wiped out in Scotland partly because they stood with the Tories in the Independence vote.

If they stand with the Tories again in backing a Tory Brexit how do you think that will go down with the voters?

[Megadrive Man]

What makes you think Labour will support a Tory Brexit? They won't back either the deal or a no deal exit?

[mattyq]

1 minute ago, MegadriveMan said:

What makes you think Labour will support a Tory Brexit? They won't back either the deal or a no deal exit?

So what will they do? Do you know? I certainly don't and that's one of the reasons their policy needs changing

Any form of Brexit is a Tory Brexit ... it was conceived in the Conservative party and nurtured by the ERG and Bastards as John Major called them

[Megadrive Man]

I think they will try to reopen negotiations and then put the new deal to a peoples vote.

 

That would be the fairest thing to do.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, mattyq said:

It should be the policy pushed by John McDonald and Emily Thornberry and Keir Starmer - a second ref

I don't think any of them are calling for a change of policy (y'know, given that the option for a second referendum is part of the actual policy passed by Conference).

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, mattyq said:

Labour were wiped out in Scotland partly because they stood with the Tories in the Independence vote.

If they stand with the Tories again in backing a Tory Brexit how do you think that will go down with the voters?

They have absolutely refused to back a Tory Brexit.  If Labour had ever been inclined to back a Tory Brexit, the UK would have left on May's deal in March.

 

This absolutely ineffective  (or so we're told) Opposition has thwarted Tory attempts to push through their main piece of legislation and has seen off the Prime Minister. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 hours ago, MegadriveMan said:

I think they will try to reopen negotiations and then put the new deal to a peoples vote.

 

That would be the fairest thing to do.

Indeed.

 

Got to get into Government to do that first, though. The media, the US and the Israelis are quite open about their determination to stop the UK electorate making that democratic choice, though.

 

Isn't "taking back control" wonderful. 

[magicrat]

17 hours ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Polls only have a small percentage of the electorate comment on them.

 

How many have you been questioned about since turning 18? Me, 0. 

 

I personally think polls have lost all credibility since the Referendum.

 

If voting was made compulsory then I’d imagine we would we see very different results than what the polls are suggesting. 

 

 

 

We can argue whether polls are accurate or not. I would agree they are discredited however a second referendum is what should happen imo.

[magicrat]

3 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I don't think any of them are calling for a change of policy (y'know, given that the option for a second referendum is part of the actual policy passed by Conference).

Its a contradictory policy though. At what point does Corbyn conclude that an election is not happening and throw his weight behind a second referendum. ? It's not an unreasonable observation to say he doesn't want a second referendum and is doing his best to obstruct Labour from supporting one. 

[Pureblood]

Leave would win again in a second referendum, unless you could vote using a PS4.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, magicrat said:

Its a contradictory policy though. At what point does Corbyn conclude that an election is not happening and throw his weight behind a second referendum. ? It's not an unreasonable observation to say he doesn't want a second referendum and is doing his best to obstruct Labour from supporting one. 

It isn't a contradictory policy. And it isn't reasonable  (given what Corbyn has actually said, rather than what various members of the commentariat claim he thinks) to observe that he's doing anything other than sticking to the party's democratically determined policy.

[magicrat]

2 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

It isn't a contradictory policy. And it isn't reasonable  (given what Corbyn has actually said, rather than what various members of the commentariat claim he thinks) to observe that he's doing anything other than sticking to the party's democratically determined policy.

But he has tried a no-confidence vote and failed and cant see how he can engineer a GE so when does plan B of the party's policy kick in ? This is why it's contradictory and just kicks the can down the road on a second referendum

[Davelfc]

I’ve never understood why you would remove no deal from the process, it’s a default position and an excellent bargaining chip, I mean you wouldn’t go into a car dealership and tell them you cannot leave without buying a car. Obviously you need a strong negotiator, and be prepared for brinksmanship. 

 

Tories are shitting themselves again and they’ll put self preservation before the country and the people, sort of their default position as with most politicians. 

 

May hung up the white flag on day one, maybe someone else will get tough and actually get us a good deal. It might not look pretty from the outside but it’s the result that counts.