Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Red Phoenix]

5 hours ago, arthur friedenreich said:

Don’t talk bollocks soft lad

 

It was supposed to sound wrong, just like I think it is when Marx is used in the same way. It's not that these writers/philosophers are actually wanting these things, but that their works can be applied wrongly or bits selected by idiots, clowns, psychos, etc. I remember reading Jung years back and if I remember rightly he saw Nietzsche's superman concepts in the Nazis, and that was actually used by them to an extent as well from what I can see.

 

The point isn't that Nietzsche supported nationalism or fascism, Zionism, crony capitalism or psychopaths, but that some of those groups have misused his works, selected parts and gone with them. In the same way that idiots, clowns, psychos have selected parts of Marx and pretended that they were just applying his stuff as well.

 

It goes back to what I was saying about people, groups and parties often being fucking stupid as more of the cause than the writers we're talking about.

 

Just having a quick look here can point out issues (and yes I know plenty of things could be linked for Marx) :

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/nietzsche-ideas-superman-slavery-nihilism-adolf-hitler-nazi-racism-white-supremacy-fascism-a8138396.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_and_reception_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Übermensch#Nazism

 

For those that have read Nietzsche and like his works, looking at that must seem outrageous and I apologize for that. You don't need to convince me that that isn't what he was really about and the intent here isn't to offend. I'm sure I'd like some of his writing too and might read some one day. The writer of one of my favourite recent books on UFO's avoided Nietzsche because she knew of some of his ideas that she was completely against, but one day ended up reading one of his books and became a big fan too.

 

The point is that idiots can select parts of the writings of people and do completely fucking stupid things. So the whole Marx/Nietzsche/Bakunin/whoever argument is really missing the point a lot of the time.

[Jenson]

1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

The point is that idiots can select parts of the writings of people and do completely fucking stupid things. So the whole Marx/Nietzsche/Bakunin/whoever argument is really missing the point a lot of the time.

Also applies to the Bible, Koran, Torah etc etc

[Red Phoenix]

3 minutes ago, Jenson said:

Also applies to the Bible, Koran, Torah etc etc

Yeah I said the same thing last night too :

14 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

You could say the same about religions to an extent, even if I'm not trying to compare the ideas. The vast majority just use those things to try and be better people, but there's always going to be some that take parts of texts and go on to create absolute fucking chaos.

 

[Red Phoenix]

Even part of what I actually linked shows how stupid it is (anarchism section of the Übermensch

wiki page) :

Quote

The thought of Nietzsche had an important influence on anarchist authors. Spencer Sunshine writes: "There were many things that drew anarchists to Nietzsche: his hatred of the state; his disgust for the mindless social behavior of 'herds'; his anti-Christianity; his distrust of the effect of both the market and the State on cultural production; his desire for an 'overman' — that is, for a new human who was to be neither master nor slave; his praise of the ecstatic and creative self, with the artist as his prototype, who could say, 'Yes' to the self-creation of a new world on the basis of nothing; and his forwarding of the 'transvaluation of values' as source of change, as opposed to a Marxist conception of class struggle and the dialectic of a linear history."

The influential American anarchist Emma Goldman, in the preface of her famous collection Anarchism and Other Essays, defends both Nietzsche and Max Stirner from attacks within anarchism when she says "The most disheartening tendency common among readers is to tear out one sentence from a work, as a criterion of the writer's ideas or personality. Friedrich Nietzsche, for instance, is decried as a hater of the weak because he believed in the Übermensch. It does not occur to the shallow interpreters of that giant mind that this vision of the Übermensch also called for a state of society which will not give birth to a race of weaklings and slaves."

 

[Boss]

7 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

It was supposed to sound wrong, just like I think it is when Marx is used in the same way. It's not that these writers/philosophers are actually wanting these things, but that their works can be applied wrongly or bits selected by idiots, clowns, psychos, etc. I remember reading Jung years back and if I remember rightly he saw Nietzsche's superman concepts in the Nazis, and that was actually used by them to an extent as well from what I can see.

 

The point isn't that Nietzsche supported nationalism or fascism, Zionism, crony capitalism or psychopaths, but that some of those groups have misused his works, selected parts and gone with them. In the same way that idiots, clowns, psychos have selected parts of Marx and pretended that they were just applying his stuff as well.

 

How can Marx be taken any other way than what he meant? It's relatively straight forward. Overthrow Capitalism, abolish personal property and inheritance. Where's the ambiguity there? 

 

If Christians say they don't like gays because the Bible says "do not have sexual relations with a man as one would a woman, for that is detestable" is that their misrepresentation? Clearly not, it's the text itself and what it advocates and disavows. 

[Red Phoenix]

26 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

How can Marx be taken any other way than what he meant? It's relatively straight forward. Overthrow Capitalism, abolish personal property and inheritance. Where's the ambiguity there?

 

It's misused. It's seen by those that oppose him and his ideas and taken in the worst way possible.

 

How can Nietzsche be taken any other way than what he meant? Create a Master Race. Where's the ambiguity there?

 

Again it's misused and taken in the worst way possible. You could say that any future state of Humanity in a utopian sense where war, inequality, starvation, racism, etc, has been eradicated could be classed as a "Master Race", because they've gone beyond the things that affect us most today. Maybe it could be better described as a "Master Multicultural Species" or something. It's not like Nietzsche is still around to alter his wording and explanation though is it? Like maybe Marx would too with his ideas.

 

Waiting for some future thread now where I'm arguing with someone and I get accused of "supporting a Master Race." I'll just have to neg them, that'll show 'em.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

26 minutes ago, Boss said:

If Christians say they don't like gays because the Bible says "do not have sexual relations with a man as one would a woman, for that is detestable" is that their misrepresentation? Clearly not, it's the text itself and what it advocates and disavows. 

Am I the only one who thinks that quote sounds a bit pro gay sex? Like sex with a woman is detestable.

 

Plus, it's a bit hard to have sex with a bloke the same way as a woman, unless all biblical women took it in the poop shoot.

[Anubis]

1 minute ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Am I the only one who thinks that quote sounds a bit pro gay sex? Like sex with a woman is detestable.

 

Plus, it's a bit hard to have sex with a bloke the same way as a woman, unless all biblical women took it in the poop shoot.

Yeah, it's badly drafted by God, and ambiguous. Not his best work.

[Boss]

16 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

It's misused. It's seen by those that oppose him and his ideas and taken in the worst way possible.

 

How can Nietzsche be taken any other way than what he meant? Create a Master Race. Where's the ambiguity there?

 

Again it's misused and taken in the worst way possible. You could say that any future state of Humanity in a utopian sense where war, inequality, starvation, racism, etc, has been eradicated could be classed as a "Master Race", because they've gone beyond the things that affect us most today. Maybe it could be better described as a "Master Multicultural Species" or something. It's not like Nietzsche is still around to alter his wording and explanation though is it? Like maybe Marx would too with his ideas.

 

Waiting for some future thread now where I'm arguing with someone and I get accused of "supporting a Master Race." I'll just have to neg them, that'll show 'em.

 

the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror

 

Misused? How do you take this any other way than a call to arms for a violent and swift revolution?

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

For context. 

 

Engels in Neue Rheinische Zeitung November 1848

The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna

by Karl Marx

Neue Rheinische Zeitung No. 136  Translated by the Marx-Engels Institute

 

Cologne, November 6. Croatian freedom and order has won the day, and this victory was celebrated with arson, rape, looting and other atrocities. Vienna is in the hands of Windischgratz, Jellachich and Auersperg. Hecatombs of victims are sacrificed on the grave of the aged traitor Latour.

The gloomy forecasts of our Vienna correspondent [Muller-Tellering. See Neue Rheinische Zeitung No. 127, October 27, 1848. -- Ed.] have come true, and by now he himself may have become a victim of the butchery.

 

For a while we hoped Vienna could be liberated by Hungarian reinforcements, and we are still in the dark regarding the movements of the Hungarian army.

Treachery of every kind prepared the way for Vienna's fall. The entire performance of the Imperial Diet and the town council since October 6 is a tale of continuous treachery. Who are the people represented in the Imperial Diet and the town council?

The bourgeoisie.

 

A part of the Viennese National Guard openly sided with the camarilla from the very beginning of the October revolution. Towards the end of the October revolution another part of the National Guard in collusion with the imperial bandits fought against the proletariat and the Academic Legion. To which strata do these groups of the National Guard belong?

To the bourgeoisie.

 

The bourgeoisie in France, however, headed the counterrevolution only after it had broken down all obstacles to the rule of its own class. The bourgeoisie in Germany meekly joins the retinue of the absolute monarchy and of feudalism before securing even the first conditions of existence necessary for its own civic freedom and its rule. In France it played the part of a tyrant and made its own counter-revolution. In Germany it acts like a slave and carries out the counter-revolution for its own tyrants. The bourgeoisie in France won its victory in order to humble the people. In Germany it humbled itself to prevent the victory of the people. History presents no example of greater wretchedness than that of the German bourgeoisie.

 

Who fled from Vienna in large numbers leaving their wealth to be watched over by the magnanimous people, the people whom, in reward for their watchman's duties, they maligned While away and whose massacre they witnessed on their return?

The bourgeoisie.

 

Whose innermost secrets were revealed by the thermometer which dropped whenever the people of Vienna showed signs of life, and rose whenever the people were in the throes of death? Who used the runic script of the stock exchange quotations?

The bourgeoisie.

 

The "German National Assembly" and its "central authority" have betrayed Vienna. Whom do they represent?

 

Mainly the bourgeoisie.

 

The victory of "Croatian order and freedom" at Vienna depended on the victory of the "genteel" republic in Paris. Who won the day in June?

 

The bourgeoisie.

 

European counter-revolution began its debaucheries with its victory in Paris.

 

In February and March armed force was beaten everywhere. Why? Because it represented only the government. After June it was everywhere victorious because the bourgeoisie everywhere had come to a secret understanding with it, while retaining official leadership of the revolutionary movement and introducing all those half measures which by the very nature of things were bound to miscarry.

The national fanaticism of the Czechs was the most powerful instrument the Viennese camarilla possessed. The allies are already at loggerheads. In this issue our readers will find the protest of the Prague delegation against the insolent rudeness with which it was greeted in Olmutz.

 

This is the first symptom of the struggle which is going to break out between the Slav party and its hero Jellachich on the one hand, and the party of the plain camarilla, which stands above all nationality, and its hero Windischgratz on the other. Moreover the German peasants in Austria are not yet pacified. Their voice will be loudly heard above the caterwauling of the Austrian nationalities. And from a third quarter the voice of the Tsar, the friend of the people, reaches as far as Pest; his henchmen are waiting for the word of command in the Danubian principalities.

 

Finally, the last decision of the German National Assembly at Frankfurt, which incorporates German Austria into the German empire, should lead to a gigantic conflict, unless the German central authority and the German National Assembly see it as their task to enter the arena in order to be hissed off the boards by European public. For all their pious resignation the struggle in Austria will assume gigantic dimensions such as world history has never yet witnessed.

 

The second act of the drama has just been performed in Vienna, its first act having been staged in Paris under the title of The June Days. In Paris the Guarde mobile, in Vienna "Croats" -- in both cases lazzaroni, lumpenproletariat hired and armed -- were used against the working and thinking proletarians. We shall soon see the third act performed in Berlin.

 

Assuming that arms will enable the counter-revolution to establish itself in the whole of Europe, money would then kill it in the whole of Europe. European bankruptcy, national bankruptcy would be the fate nullifying the victory. Bayonets crumble like tinder when they come into contact with the salient "economic" facts.

 

But developments will not wait for the bills of exchange drawn by the European states on European society to expire. The crushing counter-blow of the June revolution will be struck in Paris. With the victory of the "red republic" in Paris, armies will be rushed from the interior of their countries to the frontiers and across them, and the real strength of the fighting parties will become evident. We shall then remember this June and this October and we too shall exclaim:

 

Vae victis!

 

The purposeless massacres perpetrated since the June and October events, the tedious offering of sacrifices since February and March, the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.

 

[Red Phoenix]

42 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror

 

Misused? How do you take this any other way than a call to arms for a violent and swift revolution?

 

 

If you put it into context like Numero has done, it's not like he called for violence against some poor innocent group of people, it's in response to violence continuously carried out by the elites in his time and in that situation. You could simply reframe it as fighting back in a war (not that I'm agreeing with it, maybe some peaceful means could've been applied better.)

 

You can't sum up all of the works of Marx with that short quote, or a few others you might find that would be similar. Just like you can't sum up all the works of Nietzsche as him wanting a Master Race. I do get that yes, people's use of selected parts of Marx might be responsible for way more death and destruction than is the case for someone like Nietzsche, but would it be so clear if people hammered away at Nietzsche in that sense like so many do Marx?

 

Maybe the left should start trying it? They could probably tie the Master Race angle and some of his other stuff into all the US wars and coups fairly easily, along with the acts of Nazis, racist Zionists, and all of the destruction and bombing carried out against Muslims and their countries. It wouldn't mean it was right, it could be done though.

 

Both can be cherry picked from if you're opposed to them and you can attribute all types of horror. And both Nietzsche and Marx would surely be disgusted in equal amounts. Marx probably gets more stick because he focused so much on wanting the conditions of the working classes improved, he went into detail on it along with the failures of our current systems, and his opposition have control of so much propaganda and the media. Marx is one of the main guys that wanted to end the rule of the corrupt crony capitalists that's carried on for so long, so he has to be enemy number 1.

 

There's no way I'm seriously trying to say Nietzsche should be seen in equal terms. I just thought of him and said it, knowing it sounded absurd, but also because I thought what you were saying wasn't making much sense either. There was a whole lot more to Marx and his works than wrongly distilling it all down to "let's have a violent revolution."

[Boss]

“We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.”

 

and that only by the most determined use of terror against these Slav peoples can we, jointly with the Poles and Magyars, safeguard the revolution. … Then there will be a struggle, an ‘unrelenting life-and-death struggle’ against those Slavs who betray the revolution; an annihilating fight and most determined terrorism – not in the interests of Germany, but in the interests of the revolution!

 

We discovered that in connection with these figures the German national simpletons and money-grubbers of the Frankfurt parliamentary swamp always counted as Germans the Polish Jews as well, although this dirtiest of all races, neither by its jargon nor by its descent, but at most only through its lust for profit, could have any relation of kinship with Frankfurt.”

 

“Removed and expelled members, like suspect individuals in general, are to be watched in the interest of the League, and prevented from doing harm. Intrigues of such individuals are at once to be reported to the community concerned.”

 

From the first moment of victory we must no longer direct our distrust against the beaten reactionary enemy, but against our former allies [the democratic forces], against the party who are now about to exploit the common victory for their own ends only. … The arming of the whole proletariat with rifles, guns, and ammunition should be carried out at once [and] the workers must … organize themselves into an independent guard, with their own chiefs and general staff, to put themselves under the order, not of the [new] Government, but of the revolutionary authorities set up by the workers. … Destruction of the influence of bourgeois democracy over the workers …[is a main point] which the proletariat, and therefore also the League, has to keep in eye during and after the coming upheaval. …to be able effectively to oppose the petty bourgeois democracy. 

 

[Barrington Womble]

On 11/04/2019 at 18:27, AngryofTuebrook said:

We need to build political pressure to stop that.

I don't think that political pressure exists or can exist. We've got here because when the Tories decided to have their confidence vote in May, they out her in a position that allows her to do whatever the fuck she wants for 12 months. She doesn't care what anyone does or says, she just wants to stick with her plan at all costs - what pressure could stop her just doing that? 

[moof]

The fuck is going on in here?

[Boss]

Here's him advocating terror against his enemies. Urging people to wage terror on a race to the point of annihilation. There's some rampant antisemitism thrown into the mix for good measure. He also talks about what later became the Stasi and the Gestapo - which he would've unequivocally endorsed as treatment of his enemies. And then to top it all off, not content with waging terror on vast sways of society, he then encourages the revolutionaries to turn on the democratic forces and destroy them as well.

 

Lovely fella. Misunderstood though.

[aRdja]

Could a non-Jew legitimately call a Jew an anti-semite?

[Boss]

Just now, viRdjil said:

Could a non-Jew legitimately call a Jew an anti-semite?

Was he Jewish, or did he just have Jewish ancestors? because he talked nothing but smack against religion. 

[aRdja]

2 minutes ago, Boss said:

Was he Jewish, or did he just have Jewish ancestors? because he talked nothing but smack against religion. 

He might not have been religious but he was a Jew. I thought it was a widely-known fact. 

[Boss]

5 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

He might not have been religious but he was a Jew. I thought it was a widely-known fact. 

Any Jewishness is hereditary. He clearly wasn't a practising Jew. He wrote a paper on the Jews that conformed to all the racial stereotypes of the day. Judging by modern standards it'd be seen as anti semitic, back then probably not.

[Barrington Womble]

4 minutes ago, Boss said:

Any Jewishness is hereditary. He clearly wasn't a practising Jew. He wrote a paper on the Jews that conformed to all the racial stereotypes of the day. Judging by modern standards it'd be seen as anti semitic, back then probably not.

But did he think the UK should remain a member of the EU?

[Numero Veinticinco]

Terror is used differently in 1800 to now. But there’s surely no debate that he, in his younger forms before he and engles Debo need it, advocated the same sort of violence that was required for other revolutions. 

[Dr Nowt]

16 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

But did he eat beans on a fry-up?

Whatever Marx’s sins, he wasn’t a mere animal.

[ZonkoVille77]

The key question should be; would Marx have approved of the porn act?

[Daisy]

This thread has turned shit. 

 

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1116751754111090689?s=09

[magicrat]

1 hour ago, moof said:

The fuck is going on in here?

Give them a 6 month extension and they go completely off piste