Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Boss]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

No, they should. The should see what they can pass, or the deal the government want if they can’t, then allow the public to decide given the new information. It’s too big not to. 

 

They've just voted against that.

[skend04]

6 minutes ago, Anubis said:

I hope you’re right NV, and I hope I’m wrong. But I’m not the only one thinking it. 

 

 

 

Of course it's a no deal. It's been on the cards since we triggered Art.50 without a plan. You've just got to decide now how you're going to see out the next year or so whilst the place burns around us.

[Lee909]

48 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

What do the DUP actually want?

 

Cromwell to rise from the fucking dead most likely

[Numero Veinticinco]

10 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

They've just voted against that.

Yes. By 12 votes, and along with every other other option. Unless you think this impass will be eternal, something is going to have to change. 

[Jose Jones]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yes. By 12 votes, and along with every other other option. Unless you think this impass will be eternal, something is going to have to change. 

It is pretty funny really.  They've voted against 5 different types of deals, a no deal, and a confirmatory referendum on either a deal or a no deal.

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

20 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

It is pretty funny really.  They've voted against 5 different types of deals, a no deal, and a confirmatory referendum on either a deal or a no deal.

 

Yeah, it’s mad. We are surely at the point where the country needs to decide. Either via an election or via a referendum. Government clearly can’t govern. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yeah, it’s mad. We are surely at the point where the country needs to decide. Either via an election or via a referendum. Government clearly can’t govern. 

It seems pretty clear to me what's needed: if this group of 600-odd people can't reach a decision, let's replace a bunch of them with some others who can reach a decision.

 

Unfortunately, I think May is in her bunker and would rather watch us all burn on 12th April than call a General Election.

[Megadrive Man]

53 minutes ago, Lee909 said:

 

Cromwell to rise from the fucking dead most likely

Is that more or less likely than a no deal brexit?

[Megadrive Man]

If we are heading towards no deal, why did so many ERG voters vote for her deal last time out?

 

I know she said she would resign if they vote for it, but she will have to resign if she can't get it through?

[Lee909]

8 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

Is that more or less likely than a no deal brexit?

Fuck knows half the tory MP and 90% of the house of Lords look like the living dead

[chrisbonnie]

4 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yeah, it’s mad. We are surely at the point where the country needs to decide. Either via an election or via a referendum. Government clearly can’t govern. 

With all due respect, didn't the country already decide when they stupidly decided to side with Farage and vote to leave the EU? 

 

I know it was a close vote, but it was still more than 50% of the voters. 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

34 minutes ago, chrisbonnie said:

With all due respect, didn't the country already decide when they stupidly decided to side with Farage and vote to leave the EU? 

 

I know it was a close vote, but it was still more than 50% of the voters. 

 

 

They indicated in a non-binding vote that they wanted to leave Europe. They didn’t decide how they wanted to leave Europe. We don’t know if, considering how much more we now know about what Brexit looks like, if they still do. Do the people that voted Brexit who wanted to pull the plug completely support a customs union? Do the ones who were sold Brexit on us having close ties want a no deal Brexit? We’ve no idea. And considering the vote was just over 51 to 49 and didn’t allow those who would be impacted by it vote, I’d say there’s questions still to be answered. 

 

However, we are in a different situation now. The government have acted as instructed by the referendum. They’ve negotiated a deal, and it’s a poor one that we know will cost us and our economy a massive amount long term, with the alternative of no deal destroying our economy and our country suffering massively. We can’t get that deal approved in parliament, because in another vote the country didn’t pick a majority government. 

 

So, knowing what we now do about what Brexit looks like, knowing what we do about parliament not being able to deliver the Brexit in a way everybody agrees on, and with them not even agreeing what alternative they would support, something has to give. We should not pretend democracy is a one off event. It’s okay to check with the electorate now that circumstances have changed. The government is there to act in the best interests of its people. If no deal is the only way of delivering on Brexit, which it seems clear that it is, then it is okay to go and ask... okay, this is the type of Brexit available... still want to jump off the cliff? Rather than ‘well, you did say you wanted a coastal walk, not the nicer route is closed, so time for you to jump to your death’. Much better to ask ‘now the routenis closed so you want to jump to your death in the name of a coastal walk or do you just want to go home and watch TV?’. 

[Anubis]

 

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/04/01/circular-firing-squad-puritanism-sees-remainers-and-soft-bre

 

 

Quote

Circular firing squad: Puritanism sees Remainers and Soft Brexiters destroy each other

Ian DuntMonday, 1 April 2019 10:13 PM

Monday, 1 April 2019 10:13 PM

It was like the final scene of Reservoir Dogs. Each of the Brexit political tribes held a gun up to the other and shouted at them, preventing any one idea from securing a majority.

 

They killed everything: a customs union, the single market, a People's Vote and even the ability to keep no-deal off the table.

 

There were four motions put forward in the indicative vote debate tonight - the latest event at which MPs wrestle control of the parliamentary timetable from the government and try to find an alternative to Theresa May's stale plan. If any one of them could secure a majority, it could act as a battering ram forcing the prime minister to give ground.

 

Ken Clarke put forward a motion on customs union membership. Fellow Tory MP Nick Boles put down one on single market membership. Labour MP Peter Kyle authored one on a People's Vote. And SNP MP Joanna Cherry tried to replace no-deal with a revocation vote.

 

In a bizarre turn-around, only the Labour party acted with any pragmatism. It was still not ready to support the Cherry amendment, but it did swing behind Boles' motion. It was the first time the party had backed a specific single market proposal - a crucial moment in its evolution on the issue. They also whipped in favour of Clarke and Kyle, despite reservations in the party against a referendum.

 

Shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer recognised that the indicative votes process, if it is to succeed, required pragmatism. He had pushed that on his party and then he pushed it on the Commons as a whole. "I recognise many members have a single preferred option and understandably want to push that option," he said. "No one wants to stand in the way of that. But I do urge colleagues to enter into the spirit of the exercise we're now engaged in and that means supporting options other than their own preferred option."

 

It wasn't to be. Everyone else, apart from arguably the SNP, acted like zealots, unable to even lend their support to other options. They were engaged in a mass act of self-harm. There was no excuse for it at all. They were not limited to one vote. They could select as many options as they liked. And still they could not support one another.

 

People's Vote MPs in Labour, the Liberal Democrats and The Independent Group - an organisation literally based on the principle of working together across tribal divisions - refused to back the customs union or single market motions. It was an insane way to behave. They were failing to reduce the damage of Brexit in a desperate attempt to operate a 'last man standing' strategy which was arrogant before and now started to look downright irresponsible.

 

The Soft Brexit lot were not much better. Clarke backed the single market proposal but wouldn't support a second referendum. Boles tried to get Labour and Tory MPs on side by saying that his plan could be delivered by a May exit date without realising that by doing so he alienated supporters of a second referendum, who knew they could not hold a campaign by then. 

 

There were glimmer of hope. Although Boles had originally told the Commons he was abstaining on the People's Vote motion, he ended up voting for it. "In the spirit of compromise and finding common ground," former Lib Dem leader Tim Farron responded, "I have also voted for Common Market 2.0"

 

But it was not enough. When the results came in, it was a shocking indictment of the political class as a whole. Clarke's motion failed by 273 votes to 276. Boles failed by 261 votes to 282. Kyle by 280 to 292. Each and every one of them could have passed if the critics of the government's Brexit plan worked together. They utterly failed.

 

After the results were read out, Boles finally lost his patience. In a stunning moment of parliamentary drama, the Tory moderniser gave up on his lifelong project. "I've given everything in an attempt to find a compromise," he told a packed House of Commons. "I accept I have failed. I have failed chiefly because my party refuses to compromise. I regret therefore to announce I can no longer sit for this party."

 

And with that, he stood up and walked away from the Tory benches, literally crossing the floor of the House. A voice beside him exclaimed: "Oh Nick. Nick don't go, come on".

 

Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay acted as if he was somehow triumphant. He made it clear the government would seek to put its deal before the Commons again this week.

 

But of course the government was even more pitiful and vapid than everyone else. First, it had tried to kill the indicative vote process by whipping against it. Then, when that failed, it ordered MPs on the government payroll to abstain. If you add that vote onto the numbers we saw tonight for any of the three leading options, they'd have succeeded.

 

Self-inflicted defeat. Puritanism over pragmatism. The cancer in the Brexit movement now fully on display among those who oppose it.

 

The germ of this failure was in Remain and Soft Brexit organisations from the very beginning, when Norway supporters would attack People's Vote campaigners for being naive and People's Vote campaigners would accuse Norway supporters of being traitors.

 

The vast majority of Remainers and Brexit critics do not think like this. They will take whatever looks most achievable at the time.

 

People's Vote if possible, Norway if it isn't. Try and get your ideal outcome, but make sure you can always opt for a least-bad one if that fails.

 

And it's not as if Norway has nothing to recommend it. It would preserve Britain's economic life mostly as is. It would secure free movement, thereby protecting millions of Europeans in the UK and Brits in Europe. That is a big deal, but apparently not a big enough deal for the people who could not bring themselves to even lend it their support this evening.

 

The same was true of Soft Brexiters, who could not accept the obvious moral argument that their vision of Brexit was so plainly different to that sold to voters in 2016 that it would require a vote to ensure it had the support of the public.

 

Neither side would budge, so they both ended up losing. It was a betrayal of the millions of people, far more pragmatic than those in parliament, who need protection from the insane assault the government is inflicting on the country.

 

The only flicker of hope now lies with events on Wednesday. Oliver Letwin, the author of this process, has secured the timetable for another day of indicative votes. It is the last chance saloon. He will need to find an alternate voting system - operating on a preference basis - to try and sift out MPs' least-bad selections from their ideal ones.

 

But it is up to parliamentarians too. They have seen tonight the damage they've done when they behave as puritanically as the ERG. There is one more chance for them to show a more sensible disposition.

 

If not, then it ends like Reservoir Dogs: with everyone bleeding out on the floor. They need to wise up - fast - and stop behaving in the manner they criticise their enemies for.

 

[ZonkoVille77]

Bunch of cunts

[clangers]

Complete shambles last night, so many of the groups criticising the ERG for it's unreasonable and uncompromising behaviour demonstrating exactly the same behviour. Special mention must go out to the Independent Group as a complete bunch of wankers, so much for a party set up to apparently reach out and compromise.

 

I still suspect this will end next week with May heading off to the EU summit with no plan beyond wanting a long extension and relying on the EU to refuse this so we leave via no-deal next week with May being able to blame the EU if it turns out to be a catastrophe. We might get a few weeks grace for planning on either side?

 

[Chairman Meow]

The EU will be blamed no matter what happens.

 

UK politicians never accept responsibility for anything, it's always without fail the fault of someone else. 

[chrisbonnie]

3 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

They indicated in a non-binding vote that they wanted to leave Europe. They didn’t decide how they wanted to leave Europe. We don’t know if, considering how much more we now know about what Brexit looks like, if they still do. Do the people that voted Brexit who wanted to pull the plug completely support a customs union? Do the ones who were sold Brexit on us having close ties want a no deal Brexit? We’ve no idea. And considering the vote was just over 51 to 49 and didn’t allow those who would be impacted by it vote, I’d say there’s questions still to be answered. 

 

However, we are in a different situation now. The government have acted as instructed by the referendum. They’ve negotiated a deal, and it’s a poor one that we know will cost us and our economy a massive amount long term, with the alternative of no deal destroying our economy and our country suffering massively. We can’t get that deal approved in parliament, because in another vote the country didn’t pick a majority government. 

 

So, knowing what we now do about what Brexit looks like, knowing what we do about parliament not being able to deliver the Brexit in a way everybody agrees on, and with them not even agreeing what alternative they would support, something has to give. We should not pretend democracy is a one off event. It’s okay to check with the electorate now that circumstances have changed. The government is there to act in the best interests of its people. If no deal is the only way of delivering on Brexit, which it seems clear that it is, then it is okay to go and ask... okay, this is the type of Brexit available... still want to jump off the cliff? Rather than ‘well, you did say you wanted a coastal walk, not the nicer route is closed, so time for you to jump to your death’. Much better to ask ‘now the routenis closed so you want to jump to your death in the name of a coastal walk or do you just want to go home and watch TV?’. 

Very fair points. 

 

I might be completely incorrect but I honestly think if the vote was retaken, the majority to leave the EU would be even bigger this time. 

 

It's seem every two bit douche bag on facebook is convinced the EU and Ireland are holding you to ransom. 

 

I even know one guy who told me it's about time the EU paid up the money they owe the UK and let them leave. Don't know how I kept a straight face. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

23 minutes ago, chevettehs said:

The EU will be blamed no matter what happens.

 

UK politicians never accept responsibility for anything, it's always without fail the fault of someone else. 

Which is pretty much why Leave won the Referendum.  

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, chrisbonnie said:

Very fair points. 

 

I might be completely incorrect but I honestly think if the vote was retaken, the majority to leave the EU would be even bigger this time. 

And that’s democracy. If the choice is that they want to self destruct for no good reason, that’s their choice to make. As long as we are there informed and given a fair crack, there can be no complaints.

[littletedwest]

59 minutes ago, chrisbonnie said:

Very fair points. 

 

I might be completely incorrect but I honestly think if the vote was retaken, the majority to leave the EU would be even bigger this time. 

 

It's seem every two bit douche bag on facebook is convinced the EU and Ireland are holding you to ransom. 

 

I even know one guy who told me it's about time the EU paid up the money they owe the UK and let them leave. Don't know how I kept a straight face. 

It's a joke. Sadly in this country the media control the narrative. 

My step son owns a recruitment consultancy, he pays LinkedIn about 2 grand a year for recruiter access. Probably generates about 5 times that much in revenue.  If this was the daily mail it'd say "give us our 2 grand back" 

[Red Phoenix]

Apparently they're voting again soon, hopefully some more of them will realise how fucking stupid this is getting and actually vote for something to avoid no deal.

[M_B]

The Independent group have signalled they will vote for a Customs Union with a regulatory alignment. That would get that option over the line.

[skend04]

All these indicative votes are worthless though. They'll put whatever may win in the political declaration and then the next PM will come in and discard it anyway. It's a massive waste of time, the only way any of this makes a difference is a binding confirmatory vote on May's deal Vs Remain. Everything else is just white noise.

[Anubis]

25 minutes ago, M_B said:

The Independent group have signalled they will vote for a Customs Union with a regulatory alignment. That would get that option over the line.

 

Unsurprising judging by the response of people who had been favourable to them, to Ummuna’s voting position tweet yesterday.

[mattyq]

MPs are representatives and not delegates and whilst it is bloody frustrating that they can't vote for something decent you have to remember that they've only had 2 goes at this so far. They should have been doing this sort of thing 3 years ago and we very well might not be in this mess now.

Also, it's up to MPs to protect the public from themselves. If the public vote for No Deal Brexit then it is the duty of all MPs to ignore and try to implement something better.

The Public don't have the knowledge and expertise to judge these matters and cede control to MPs who, supposedly, are better placed to deal with such things.

This whole thing falls apart when you have pigshit ignorant twats like Bridgen, Francois and David Davies