Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[cloggypop]

3 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

 

They must have negotiated and convinced May to put up student fees again.

They are letting Vince sell something else 

[Barrington Womble]

24 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

It's actually happening. May has said she wants cross-party talks, but everybody involved so far states that she's shown a deluded unwilligness to move an inch from a deal that lost by over 200 votes in Parliament, yet Twitter Tories and the right leaning press are actually blaming Corbyn for the impasse that we've reached. And loads of people are actually lapping it up. 

 

This country is officially full of gullible, unintelligent sheep, largely incapable of exhibiting any sort of critical thinking. We're fucked. Absolutely fucked. I have close to zero confidence that a second referendum would produce a different result to the first one. 

The country has always been this way. In my lifetime it has always elected the government that the s*n told them to. It's just these same idiots who no longer buy the s*n, hang on to every lunatic's word on twitter. 

8 minutes ago, deiseach said:

At the risk of being accused of invoking Godwin, she is behaving like Hitler in the bunker, convinced that if she holds out long enough something will come to her rescue. Hitler expected the Allies to fall out with each other, just as Frederick the Great was saved from certain defeat when the Empress of Russia died and the new Emperor turned out to be an admirer of Frederick. And lo! when Roosevelt died, Hitler thought salvation had come. It hadn't, but it wasn't an entirely unreasonable hope given it was such a fragile alliance. Who she is expecting to fall off the stage to deliver her from her enemies, I don't know. Jeremy Corbyn?

She's hoping to win some of her own and the labour centrists. 

[deiseach]

3 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

She's hoping to win some of her own and the labour centrists. 

Good plan. That should reduce her deficit from 230 to about 150.

[Barrington Womble]

Just now, deiseach said:

Good plan. That should reduce her deficit from 230 to about 150.

she can probably win 50 of her own if she tweaks the backstop and probably she'll think all of the 70 labour MPs who are campaigning for a 2nd vote are winnable. and she will hope to bribe the dup. that would do it. what she does know is the ERG have committed to back any future no confidence vote no matter what direction she goes in next. so she can go softer to win over people on the edges and not have to care about the ERG, they still won't vote with her, but they won't join any no confidence vote. she has the license to move to a softer brexit, which she'd probably get agreement in the EU as they want the softest possible brexit. 

[deiseach]

6 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

she can probably win 50 of her own if she tweaks the backstop and probably she'll think all of the 70 labour MPs who are campaigning for a 2nd vote are winnable. and she will hope to bribe the dup. that would do it. what she does know is the ERG have committed to back any future no confidence vote no matter what direction she goes in next. so she can go softer to win over people on the edges and not have to care about the ERG, they still won't vote with her, but they won't join any no confidence vote. she has the license to move to a softer brexit, which she'd probably get agreement in the EU as they want the softest possible brexit. 

If she believes all this is possible, I was too generous with the Hitler analogy.

[Aventus]

1 hour ago, Barry Wom said:

The country has always been this way. In my lifetime it has always elected the government that the s*n told them to. It's just these same idiots who no longer buy the s*n, hang on to every lunatic's word on twitter.

I remember a major pisstake a few years ago when they announced who they were supporting in the election, in England it was the tories, and in Scotland it was the SNP. 

 

So obviously they weren't supporting the SNP for their policies, they just wanted to split the Labour vote north of the border to ensure a tory win. 

 

 

[No2]

2 hours ago, deiseach said:

At the risk of being accused of invoking Godwin, she is behaving like Hitler in the bunker, convinced that if she holds out long enough something will come to her rescue. Hitler expected the Allies to fall out with each other, just as Frederick the Great was saved from certain defeat when the Empress of Russia died and the new Emperor turned out to be an admirer of Frederick. And lo! when Roosevelt died, Hitler thought salvation had come. It hadn't, but it wasn't an entirely unreasonable hope given it was such a fragile alliance. Who she is expecting to fall off the stage to deliver her from her enemies, I don't know. Jeremy Corbyn?

She has a chip and a chair and a suicide vest.

 

She knows she has no outs, She has no options and hasn't since day 1. I don't for one second think she would go through with a no deal but equally she can't remove it, an unwired suicide vest is not a suicide vest at all. 

 

She is waiting for someone else to come along that she can blame. She will probably get someone too. If Labour call for a 2nd referendum it's on them, " I done my best, I was as difficult as I said I would be, refused to budge from my red lines but Labour won't give the 17m people what they voted for. I invited them to talk, they wouldn't, Its all their fault".

 

Another option is the likes of Nissan, Landrover and Ford announcing 50000 job cuts if it's a no deal, that or some other massive industry making a huge threat would be enough to cancel it until they can come to another arrangement in 5 or 10 years. 

[cloggypop]

How about Hitachi scrapping a 13 billion quid power plant? 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46900918

[Denny Crane]

Well some Conservatives including three cabinet ministers think an election is possible. Hague states the media are underestimating the chances. 

 

 

Jim Pickard

 

@PickardJE

 

Three cabinet ministers have indicated to the Financial Times that they think a general election is possible. Another minister said: “William (Hague) is right: chaos will eventually lead to a general election.” (link: https://www.ft.com/content/b33f863e-19b2-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21) ft.com/content/b33f86… via

@financialtimes

[SasaS]

4 hours ago, deiseach said:

And lo! when Roosevelt died, Hitler thought salvation had come. It hadn't, but it wasn't an entirely unreasonable hope given it was such a fragile alliance.

 

Whaaaat? Did Zhukov and Konev know about this?

[magicrat]

6 hours ago, Scooby Dudek said:

The reason we have the deal we currently have is because of all the Red lines. It appears she will not remove any of them, so no one will be able to shape anything, but will be blamed for being involved.

She is posturing (as is Corbyn) and will have to give way but publicly setting pre-conditions is a waste of time. 

 

6 hours ago, Anny Road said:

Much as I like JC he does not give a fuck about Brexit. Arguably rightly.

He wants power and the ability to implement his range of policies. Left wing nationalisation, workers empowerment etc etc.

That is fine by me but will make 70% of the country shiver.

He cannot absent himself from the biggest defining moment of post war politics if he wants to get elected. It's all in play if he gets it right. 

[Gnasher]

May is imo sinister. She will do anything to stay in power. Edward Heath was very much cut by the same cloth.

 

Cameron and Blair were both calculating media savvy ego maniacs.

 

All were propped up by a right wing press and the BBC.  All have gone on record to be supportive of the EU and support EU policy.

 

Sorry to put a different point of view in the I luv the EU fred but anything that props up the status quo of wealth inequality deserves to be slain.

 

The best thing this countrt did was voting out.

 

 

[Gnasher]

It was obvious that the Tory's would fuck up the Brexit negotiations (good to view their incompetence)  or/and  try to use the leaving of the EU to promote their own agenda but let's not forget the EU is the organised beast that promotes privatization and has pushed forward the austerity policies that have caused misery for millions of the least well off across the continent.

[Trumo]

19 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

May is imo sinister. She will do anything to stay in power. Edward Heath was very much cut by the same cloth.

 

Cameron and Blair were both calculating media savvy ego maniacs.

 

All were propped up by a right wing press and the BBC.  All have gone on record to be supportive of the EU and support EU policy.

 

Sorry to put a different point of view in the I luv the EU fred but anything that props up the status quo of wealth inequality deserves to be slain.

 

The best thing this countrt did was voting out.

 

 

 

Right, because the UK's ruling classes have historically been known for their altruism towards the country's populace. Trickle-down economics is a fallacy designed to keep the proles in check.

[magicrat]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

It was obvious that the Tory's would fuck up the Brexit negotiations (good to view their incompetence)  or/and  try to use the leaving of the EU to promote their own agenda but let's not forget the EU is the organised beast that promotes privatization and has pushed forward the austerity policies that have caused misery for millions of the least well off across the continent.

It's more about the party being absolutely split on what outcome they want and she runs a minority government . It's an intractable problem that will require a second vote to resolve.  

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, magicrat said:

It's more about the party being absolutely split on what outcome they want and she runs a minority government . It's an intractable problem that will require a second vote to resolve.  

 

Yep. Maybe.

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Trumo said:

Trickle-down economics is a fallacy designed to keep the proles in check.

 

We shouldn't be having a full economic policy to keep proles in check. We should be able to have a proper brexit and close the borders so proles aren't coming over here as much in the first place. Keep most of them in the EU where they belong.

[razor]

10 hours ago, rico1304 said:

No, I care about my family and people I know more than anyone else and make no apologies for that.

You say you only care about you and your family, and because you somehow believe you would be better off under the Tories, that's why you vote for them.  You say this like that is the beginning and end of the matter.  Like there are no other consequences for your decision.  But the truth is, although somehow you are better off, other people pay a heavy price.  But so what, eh?

 

I vote Tory because I care about me.

But other people suffer hugely because of Tory social and economic policy.

I vote Tory because I care about me.

10 hours ago, rico1304 said:

You say you care deeply about other people, oh good, but how exactly does that care manifest itself? It’s like hopes and prayers, means fuck all unless you put your money where your mouth is.  You feel good about yourself though, that’s the main thing.  

You'll be relieved to hear I do put my money where my mouth is.  And also relieved to hear I don't do it to feel good about myself, either.

 

 

As for the debate of whether modern life is better than it was 50 years ago, there are more wars, more people dying due to conflict, global terrorism; and in Britain there is destitution, debt, depression and disconnection.

 

And the music's not as good.

[Rico1304]

10 minutes ago, razor said:

You say you only care about you and your family, and because you somehow believe you would be better off under the Tories, that's why you vote for them.  You say this like that is the beginning and end of the matter.  Like there are no other consequences for your decision.  But the truth is, although somehow you are better off, other people pay a heavy price.  But so what, eh?

 

I vote Tory because I care about me.

But other people suffer hugely because of Tory social and economic policy.

I vote Tory because I care about me.

You'll be relieved to hear I do put my money where my mouth is.  And also relieved to hear I don't do it to feel good about myself, either.

 

 

As for the debate of whether modern life is better than it was 50 years ago, there are more wars, more people dying due to conflict, global terrorism; and in Britain there is destitution, debt, depression and disconnection.

 

And the music's not as good.

We’ve been over this a million times, I am better off under the Tories. JC wants to tax me more. I don’t want that.  I think I am better placed to look after my family with my money than giving it to the government and hope they do.  In my old job I’d have been made redundant, my friends still in there would be made redundant.  I want more for them than people I don’t know. If you don’t agree that’s ‘right’ I couldn’t give a shiny shit.  We both get one vote and you seem to think that how I use that I once every 4 yrs defines who I am. I think that’s fucking stupid.  I do my bit too. Who is more viirtuous a Labour voter who does fuck all or a Tory who is active in his community and helps people?  

 

People make decisions in different ways, mine differs to yours.  So what. I don’t think you’re a bad person just because of that fact. 

 

Ive provided you evidence the world is safer than its ever been.  

[razor]

We'll stick to the bigger picture stuff, then.

 

"The world is safer than it's ever been."

 

Global conflict - more than at any time since the 40s?

 

I thought your earlier post said that things are better?  More mental health issues - stress of modern life?  More personal debt.  Less job security.  More homelessness.  Larger inequality.  Old people freezing to death in their own home rings alarm bells...

 

I would also argue that communities are more fractured.  I remember every family in our street being out for Auld Lang Syne for example.  That was the 70s/80s.

 

High Streets dying before our eyes.

 

I could go on.

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, Anny Road said:

 

In so much as we all argue a leader needs to unite a large proportion of the country to move forward.

 

I'm not going to mention Blair and Thatcher but they did it. JC wil never do that.

 

Thatcher and Blair both divided the country pretty fucking horribly. Neither of them gave a fuck about uniting the country, as long as they had enough media support to keep them in power.  That's the top and bottom of their "leadership".

[cloggypop]

14 minutes ago, rico1304 said:

We’ve been over this a million times, I am better off under the Tories. JC wants to tax me more. I don’t want that.  I think I am better placed to look after my family with my money than giving it to the government and hope they do.  In my old job I’d have been made redundant, my friends still in there would be made redundant.  I want more for them than people I don’t know. If you don’t agree that’s ‘right’ I couldn’t give a shiny shit.  We both get one vote and you seem to think that how I use that I once every 4 yrs defines who I am. I think that’s fucking stupid.  I do my bit too. Who is more viirtuous a Labour voter who does fuck all or a Tory who is active in his community and helps people?  

 

People make decisions in different ways, mine differs to yours.  So what. I don’t think you’re a bad person just because of that fact. 

 

Ive provided you evidence the world is safer than its ever been.  

That's all well and good but anybody that votes Tory is a fucking cunt and I will hate you forever. 

[Rico1304]

Just now, cloggypop said:

That's all well and good but anybody that votes Tory is a fucking cunt and I will hate you forever. 

Oh no, some cunt who I’ve never met and lives a 1000 miles away doesn’t like me. How on earth will I cope?  

[cloggypop]

If Dave would still let me rep you on the odd times you are funny I still would if that would help. Funny is funny. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Eeeeeh. Tories are bad biffs. 

 

In other news, The Guardian are reporting that Corbyn may face up to a dozen or so resignations from shadow ministers if he DOES back a second referendum. 

 

Brexit really is one of the most divisive mindfucks that the country has ever entertained.