Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[AngryOfTuebrook]

51 minutes ago, SasaS said:

If you cannot grow competitive produce with all the farming subsidies, much lower transportation costs and usually some open or hidden protective tariffs then there is not much point in incentivizing people to become farmers by raising the price of food through not allowing customers choice.

 

 

Plus the benefit of a transient, seasonal, exploitable, below-minimum-wage workforce, to keep your production costs down. 

[aRdja]

Tomatos actually taste better in Italy.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, aRdja said:

Tomatos actually taste better in Italy.

Even better in Israel. Most fresh produce tastes better in Israel. 

[cloggypop]

Figs in Israel are boss

[Jairzinho]

Local fruit and veg are cheap as fuck here, and were/are in Italy as well. 

 

The key difference appears to be not allowing enormous supermarkets to kill all butchers, bakers, florists etc. Monopolising the market, and destroying towns up and down the country in the process.

 

If you want foreign stuff, it's more expensive. And no-one does anyway, because fresh local stuff is much better. People here genuinely can't understand why we allow Tesco et al to have so much power.

 

The problem isn't the EU, the problem is having a considerably more right-wing economic framework that lots of other European countries (without any of the good aspects of nationalism/protectionism)

[Babb'sBurstNad]

20 hours ago, SasaS said:

That's usually the Nazis.

Hmm, not too keen, I was hoping for a revolutionary army that used accents of pastel blue.

[Rico1304]

17 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Local fruit and veg are cheap as fuck here, and were/are in Italy as well. 

 

The key difference appears to be not allowing enormous supermarkets to kill all butchers, bakers, florists etc. Monopolising the market, and destroying towns up and down the country in the process.

 

If you want foreign stuff, it's more expensive. And no-one does anyway, because fresh local stuff is much better. People here genuinely can't understand why we allow Tesco et al to have so much power.

 

The problem isn't the EU, the problem is having a considerably more right-wing economic framework that lots of other European countries (without any of the good aspects of nationalism/protectionism)

And not being an island with not enough arable land to support the population.  We can grow lots of grass, but that’s about it.  Oh and it’s colder, I think you may be in Spain (forgive me if I got that wrong). You may have noticed it’s warmer for longer. Makes people smell. 

[Rico1304]

3 x the population density too.

[Denny Crane]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

. Thirdly, and perhaps most straightforwardly - why on earth would we want to give people an incentive to become farmers?

 

Because by 2050 we will have another 25% of humans to feed around 2.5 billion. We need to be much more efficient. Have a read of this farming is not quite what we think see the Netherlands.

 

The Netherlands has become an agricultural giant by showing what the future of farming could look like

 

In a potato field near the Netherlands’ border with Belgium, Dutch farmer Jacob van den Borne is seated in the cabin of an immense harvester before an instrument panel worthy of the starship Enterprise.

From his perch 10 feet above the ground, he’s monitoring two drones—a driverless tractor roaming the fields and a quadcopter in the air—that provide detailed readings on soil chemistry, water content, nutrients, and growth, measuring the progress of every plant down to the individual potato. Van den Borne’s production numbers testify to the power of this “precision farming,” as it’s known. The global average yield of potatoes per acre is about nine tons. Van den Borne’s fields reliably produce more than 20

 

That copious output is made all the more remarkable by the other side of the balance sheet: inputs. Almost two decades ago, the Dutch made a national commitment to sustainable agriculture under the rallying cry “Twice as much food using half as many resources.” Since 2000, van den Borne and many of his fellow farmers have reduced dependence on water for key crops by as much as 90 percent. They’ve almost completely eliminated the use of chemical pesticides on plants in greenhouses, and since 2009 Dutch poultry and livestock producers have cut their use of antibiotics by as much as 60 percent.

 

 

One more reason to marvel: The Netherlands is a small, densely populated country, with more than 1,300 inhabitants per square mile. It’s bereft of almost every resource long thought to be necessary for large-scale agriculture. Yet it’s the globe’s number two exporter of food as measured by value, second only to the United States, which has 270 times its landmass. How on Earth have the Dutch done it?

 

 

Seen from the air, the Netherlands resembles no other major food producer—a fragmented patchwork of intensely cultivated fields, most of them tiny by agribusiness standards, punctuated by bustling cities and suburbs. In the country’s principal farming regions, there’s almost no potato patch, no greenhouse, no hog barn that’s out of sight of skyscrapers, manufacturing plants, or urban sprawl. More than half the nation’s land area is used for agriculture and horticulture.

Full article below

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/09/holland-agriculture-sustainable-farming/

[stringvest]

fascinating article that - thanks for posting Denny

[cloggypop]

You should see the greenhouses here. Absolutely massive and most of them now heated by subsurface heat via pumping water down. It's impressive. The UK is way behind in this sort of technology. 

[Boss]

It seems the Pro-EU point of view is rampant, unregulated capitalism is a good thing, and if the little guy can't hang with China or wherever, then fuck him, that's his fault. Ultimately, it's a race to the bottom with that mentality. If it's all about the consumer, then there is no business. The business has to make money, otherwise what's the point?

 

If the business cannot thrive, nobody will seek to create a business within that marketplace, and ultimately you end up with monopolies and crony capitalism - which is ironically to the detriment of choice. The only real choice you have is Tesco or Tesco.

 

It's actually an extremely right wing ideology - akin to Reagan and the 'yuppy' culture of the 1980's. And yet, these very same people are the ones acting like hippies singing "Kumbaya my Lord" around a campfire when it comes to issues of Immigration. On one hand Nihilism (for the little guy farmers), and on the other Utopianism (for the immigrants). A contradiction in terms. 

[Section_31]

40 minutes ago, stringvest said:

fascinating article that - thanks for posting Denny

Didn't read the full thing but the idea of 'listening to the left behind' having now gone back to Pre Brexit style 'the left behind are thick' style shit is spot on.

 

A few things irk me about the current remain spiel.

 

(1 ) people didn't know what they were voting for. 

 

They did, it said on the ballot sheet do you want to leave the EU. It said knob all about backstops, virtual borders, customers unions and all that shite.

 

(2) 

 

The main reasons no deal of any sort have been sorted are because the Tories are cunts, and because it has never been in the EU's best interests for us to get one for fear of some kind of dominoe  effect. None of this is 'inherently' down to Brexit itself being a bad idea or unworkable, or 'the greatest act of national self destruction in living memory'. 

 

(3 ) 

 

Deliberate misinformation about how immigration works and who will, and won't, be allowed to come and work here.

 

The NHS has always depended on foreign staff and always will, it's had nothing to do with being in the EU. Half the nurses in Broad Green are from Phnom Penh, which is nowhere near Bucharest if my geography serves. 

 

This always applied to people moaning about losing their right to go and work in Europe, like a generation have been robbed of some kind of birthright that entitled them to some kind of incredible life of wealth and opportunity. How many Brits work in Europe in unskilled roles en mass? And if they do it's for holiday money or whatever, not by and large so they can save money and send it home or invest in property as many eastern Europeans do when they come here. 

 

(4 ) 

 

The utterly, utterly bizarre representation of the EU as some kind of benevolent family of nations awash with wealth which we're going to miss out on, while we stew in our small minded, racist, backwards economically island.

 

Half the EU is under the yoke of right wing populists far, far worse than we're able to conjour up. The other half is an economic wreck. The notion, for example, that people in Northern ireland should be begging for passports to the republic because after Brexit it's gonna be like wanting to leave Mexico for Texas is nuts. Everyone I know who's been to the republic for any length of time - an EU country- says it's expensive, jobs are scarce, that austerity has crippled it and half the under 30s have fucked off to Vancouver. Everyone I know in Northern Ireland are currently enjoying free health care, prescriptions, water and an enviable employment rate. 

 

 

 

 

[SasaS]

1 hour ago, Denny Crane said:

 

Because by 2050 we will have another 25% of humans to feed around 2.5 billion. We need to be much more efficient.

Historically, putting up protective barriers has seldom proved the way to increased efficiency.

[No2]

The EU charges a import duty of 232% on garlic from China. This is to protect farmers in Spain and France. The farmers in the UK and all other EU countries will be protected in similar ways for foodstuff they produce. 

 

When Tesco tell the Tories they need cheaper potatoes then you can expect the spuds on your plate to have spent half their existence in China and the other half on a ship. In theory British farmers should be in a better position to feed the country but that would require a government that has their interests at heart.

[Jose Jones]

38 minutes ago, No2 said:

The EU charges a import duty of 232% on garlic from China. This is to protect farmers in Spain and France. The farmers in the UK and all other EU countries will be protected in similar ways for foodstuff they produce. 

 

When Tesco tell the Tories they need cheaper potatoes then you can expect the spuds on your plate to have spent half their existence in China and the other half on a ship. In theory British farmers should be in a better position to feed the country but that would require a government that has their interests at heart.

Exactly.

And as seen with Stronts’ strawberry example, the supermarkets will bring in food from anywhere and everywhere..

 

British farmers weren’t being screwed over by European imports in the main, it is capitalist attitudes by the supermarkets and laissez fairer attitudes by consumers.

 

These things won’t change in voting in the Tory Brexit, in fact they are liable to get worse, because the gov will be signing shit trade deals everywhere they can get them.

 

[Mook]

1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

 

(2) 

 

The main reasons no deal of any sort have been sorted are because the Tories are cunts, and because it has never been in the EU's best interests for us to get one for fear of some kind of dominoe  effect. None of this is 'inherently' down to Brexit itself being a bad idea or unworkable, or 'the greatest act of national self destruction in living memory'. 

 

 

 

 

The people that voted for this, voted for it while the tories were in charge, we were always going to have these chimps negotiating & they were always going to be bent over the table & gang raped by the EU.

 

It was never, ever going to go well.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Hmm, not too keen, I was hoping for a revolutionary army that used accents of pastel blue.

I assumed you'd go for the movement with the best hats.

 

Could you carry off a Chavista red beret?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Boss said:

It seems the Pro-EU point of view is rampant, unregulated capitalism is a good thing, and if the little guy can't hang with China or wherever, then fuck him, that's his fault. 

That's a misrepresentation on a par with saying "the pro-Brexit point of view is racist".

 

It's possible  (I'd say logical and necessary) to be pro-EU and anti-neoliberal.

[cloggypop]

From my lowly position in the Netherlands, I'm pretty anti neoliberal. So are most of the country. 

[Boss]

10 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

That's a misrepresentation on a par with saying "the pro-Brexit point of view is racist".

 

It's possible  (I'd say logical and necessary) to be pro-EU and anti-neoliberal.

Well there must be some mental gymnastics at play there, because the EU is neo-liberal. 

[SasaS]

I wish someone would define neo-liberal once and for all.

[Mook]

9 minutes ago, SasaS said:

I wish someone would define neo-liberal once and for all.

Cunt politics.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

20 minutes ago, Boss said:

Well there must be some mental gymnastics at play there, because the EU is neo-liberal. 

The current orientation of the EU  (as dictated by the governments of the Member States) is towards neoliberalism.  It wasn't always that way: for roughly the first half of its existence the emphasis was on social democracy.  It is not inherently neoliberal. 

 

No gymnastics required. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I assumed you'd go for the movement with the best hats.

 

Could you carry off a Chavista red beret?

Sadly, no, red hats don't suit me.

 

If I'm going for military headgear then I'd choose whichever army dons pickelhaubes. Go pointy or go home.