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Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
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317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


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1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The deal with a manifesto is that if people vote you into Government, you're honour-bound to deliver its promises. (Provided, of course, you have a sense of honour  - *cough* student fees *cough*) If the electorate don't keep their part of the deal, the you're not bound to keep yours.

 

We weren't voted into government.

 

Must say I'm enjoying all the convoluted justifications for how Labour breaking its manifesto promises isn't a betrayal of the people who voted for it.

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29 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

We weren't voted into government.

 

Must say I'm enjoying all the convoluted justifications for how Labour breaking its manifesto promises isn't a betrayal of the people who voted for it.

There's nothing convoluted about it.

 

I'm amused by your hypocrisy.

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45 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Which part of the Labour manifesto for the last election (which as they weren't voted into government last election, absolutely aren't beholden to) commits them to a hard Brexit? 

 

Of course they're beholden to it, because if you're beholden to your manifesto with 50 MPs, you're beholden to it with 280.

 

The Labour manifesto committed them to honouring the referendum result, ending freedom of movement and exiting the single market. It's all in there.

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5 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Corbyn has still not come out and backed a second referendum. He said it might be an "option for the future"

 

If he came out publicly in support of a second referendum it would make it easy for the Maybot and the right wing media to paint him as the villain trying to stop Brexit. 

 

It's very easy for the Lib Dems to say they want to stop Brexit as they are completely irrelevant as a political party. Plus for all we know they might say they want to stop Brexit but when it actually come to the crunch, how can we be sure they won't vote to treble the damage of a no deal Brexit?

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37 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Of course they're beholden to it, because if you're beholden to your manifesto with 50 MPs, you're beholden to it with 280.

 

The Labour manifesto committed them to honouring the referendum result, ending freedom of movement and exiting the single market. It's all in there.

No, they’re not beholden to it. They would have been had they won power and were in government. They didn’t win, so a new manifesto will be drawn up for the next election. Nobody is beholden to their last manifesto for a different election. To claim Labour are beholden to it despite not getting into government but LD weren’t beholden to theirs despite being in government is, quite frankly, ludicrous. 

 

As for hard Brexit, that’s a negative too. You can’t claim they are committed to a hard Brexit, like the Tories, and that they are committed to leaving the single market and the customs union when the manifesto actually says ‘We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which
are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first’. Your attempt to paint them as the same as Tories is quite bizarre. 

 

You might want to dismiss everything that has been said since then, by both Corbyn and Starmer, but it doesn’t actually have a place in reality.m. I know you’re Mr. Lib Dem around these parts, but a little bit of balance wouldn’t go a miss. 

 

As much as I hate it, the British people voted to leave the European Union. I support a second referendum, I think it’s fair to ask if people still want to leave despite knowing more about how it’ll hurt. But I can’t blame any politician for acting upon the will of the British public in a representative democracy.

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Just now, Numero Veinticinco said:

No, they’re not beholden to it. They would have been had they won power and were in government. They didn’t win, so a new manifesto will be drawn up for the next election. Nobody is beholden to their last manifesto for a different election. To claim Labour are beholden to it despite not getting into government but LD weren’t beholden to theirs despite being in government is, quite frankly, ludicrous. 

 

As for hard Brexit, that’s a negative too. You can’t claim they are committed to a hard Brexit, like the Tories, and that they are committed to leaving the single market and the customs union when the manifesto actually says ‘We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which
are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first’. Your attempt to paint them as the same as Tories is quite bizarre. 

 

You might want to dismiss everything that has been said since then, by both Corbyn and Starmer, but it doesn’t actually have a place in reality.m. I know you’re Mr. Lib Dem around these parts, but a little bit of balance wouldn’t go a miss. 

 

As much as I hate it, the British people voted to leave the European Union. I support a second referendum, I think it’s fair to ask if people still want to leave despite knowing more about how it’ll hurt. But I can’t blame any politician for acting upon the will of the British public in a representative democracy.

Personally I don't feel beholden to that result. It was after all advisory with no super majority . EU citizens with residency were not allowed to vote as were most Ex-pats 

Add to there are serious questions as to it's legitimacy in light of revelations over the activities of Banks and others and evidence of Russian funding and interference.

Aside from the point you rightly make about people being properly informed now and entitled to change their minds I would argue to proceed to leave the EU based on the first result is compounding the lies, mistakes and illegal activities that gave rise to it.

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3 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

No, they’re not beholden to it. They would have been had they won power and were in government. They didn’t win, so a new manifesto will be drawn up for the next election. Nobody is beholden to their last manifesto for a different election. To claim Labour are beholden to it despite not getting into government but LD weren’t beholden to theirs despite being in government is, quite frankly, ludicrous. 

 

As for hard Brexit, that’s a negative too. You can’t claim they are committed to a hard Brexit, like the Tories, and that they are committed to leaving the single market and the customs union when the manifesto actually says ‘We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which
are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first’. Your attempt to paint them as the same as Tories is quite bizarre. 

 

You might want to dismiss everything that has been said since then, by both Corbyn and Starmer, but it doesn’t actually have a place in reality.m. I know you’re Mr. Lib Dem around these parts, but a little bit of balance wouldn’t go a miss. 

 

As much as I hate it, the British people voted to leave the European Union. I support a second referendum, I think it’s fair to ask if people still want to leave despite knowing more about how it’ll hurt. But I can’t blame any politician for acting upon the will of the British public in a representative democracy.

 

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I'm just using other people's logic against them. If the Lib Dems were beholden to their entire manifesto, despite not winning the election, then so are other parties who didn't win elections, especially if they have five times as many MPs. If the logic people have been using to bash liberals for 8 and a half years is every bit as broken as I've said it was for all that time, then hopefully that will provoke a bit of introspection among certain quarters.

 

Yes, I'm aware that Labour says it wants all the benefits of the customs union and single market without being in the customs union and single market. It's insulting nonsense, and I'm amazed (read: not remotely amazed) that they're getting away with this shit.

 

Regardless, ending freedom of movement, and exiting the single market and customs union is, essentially, a hard Brexit. And that is what was in Labour's manifesto. QED. I'm not remotely interested in the lie that we can do those things without it having a real impact upon jobs and liberty. It's a lie, and I will always call out lies.

 

If a better deal was possible, we would have had some idea by now of how it could be achieved. Anyone pushing the Labour line that it can be done is scarcely diferent from fantasists like Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg.

 

I support a second referendum and have done all along. If Labour ever get around to supporting one, then I will see that as a long overdue admission that the Lib Dems were right.

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4 hours ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

If he came out publicly in support of a second referendum it would make it easy for the Maybot and the right wing media to paint him as the villain trying to stop Brexit. 

 

It's very easy for the Lib Dems to say they want to stop Brexit as they are completely irrelevant as a political party. Plus for all we know they might say they want to stop Brexit but when it actually come to the crunch, how can we be sure they won't vote to treble the damage of a no deal Brexit?

 

Someone stopping the disaster of Brexit would be a hero, not a villain. Corbyn isn't worried about May or the media, he's worried about losing MPs in Leave-supporting areas. Really principled stuff, putting party ahead of country like that.

 

The second paragraph is just embarrassing.

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Oh goodness. Labour not getting into power isn’t the same as LDs getting into government. Obviously. You spent the last 8 years saying they weren’t beholden, now you want to hold labour, who aren’t in government, to a different standard. You know what that’s called, don’t you? It begins with an H. 

 

As for your made made up stuff about hard Brexit, it doesn’t matter how much you repeat a lie, it doesn’t become the truth. No matter how much you read into something, ignore what has been said since, it doesn’t make it true. No matter how much you want to blame Labour and say they’re no different to the Tories, despite everything pointing to the opposite, it doesn’t make it reality. Nor will it win the LDs any votes. If you care about avoiding Brexit, or avoiding many of the issues that come with it, you’d be supporting the only party capable of actually doing something about it rather than crowing about some fantasy of being proved right. 

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2 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Oh goodness. Labour not getting into power isn’t the same as LDs getting into government. Obviously. You spent the last 8 years saying they weren’t beholden, now you want to hold labour, who aren’t in government, to a different standard. You know what that’s called, don’t you? It begins with an H. 

 

As for your made made up stuff about hard Brexit, it doesn’t matter how much you repeat a lie, it doesn’t become the truth. No matter how much you read into something, ignore what has been said since, it doesn’t make it true. No matter how much you want to blame Labour and say they’re no different to the Tories, despite everything pointing to the opposite, it doesn’t make it reality. Nor will it win the LDs any votes. If you care about avoiding Brexit, or avoiding many of the issues that come with it, you’d be supporting the only party capable of actually doing something about it rather than crowing about some fantasy of being proved right. 

This.

 

Seriously, Stronts, the more you persist with your daft and disingenuous anti-Corbyn obsession, the more you're becoming someone who's best ignored in this thread (like Gnash); which would be a shame, because the next few weeks are going to be very interesting indeed and when you've got your sensible head on you've got a lot to contribute to this thread.

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1 hour ago, Anubis said:

Entertaining listening to old men with Yorkshire accents railing against the votes yesterday and complaining it’s all a big conspiracy to subvert the will of the Brexiteers.

And when we've sold off the NHS in a few years time to US health care providers they'll be the first to complain on the assumption they're still around?

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