Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Captain Howdy]

The only credible reason for any new referendum is to vote on the terms of the exit, the Conservative party chose to ask the people if they wanted stay in the EU or to leave, they decided to leave, Brexiteers would have every right to cry outrage if the question were to be asked again. I’m a remainer but I accept the fact that we’re leaving.

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

The only credible reason for any new referendum is to vote on the terms of the exit, the Conservative party chose to ask the people if they wanted stay in the EU or to leave, they decided to leave, Brexiteers would have every right to cry outrage if the question were to be asked again. I’m a remainer but I accept the fact that we’re leaving.

So you accept they voted out, but didn’t know what ‘out’ meant, or the consequences of ‘out’ 

[Captain Howdy]

I think the consequences of out where always going to be dire that’s why I voted to stay, others saw it differently

[Captain Howdy]

And if your that outraged by it all why the hell did you vote for a party that offered the opportunity to leave in the first place?

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

The only credible reason for any new referendum is to vote on the terms of the exit, the Conservative party chose to ask the people if they wanted stay in the EU or to leave, they decided to leave

So is democracy only a one off event on 23rd June referendum? What if they don't want to leave anymore? Tough?

[Captain Howdy]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

So is democracy only a one off event on 23rd June referendum? What if they don't want to leave anymore? Tough?

It was a referendum that came on the back of a long campaign, the people chose to leave, that should be honored otherwise what was the point of having one? The mistake was setting a referendum in the first place, it was always playing with fire

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

It was a referendum that came on the back of a long campaign, the people chose to leave, that should be honored otherwise what was the point of having one? The mistake was setting a referendum in the first place, it was always playing with fire

You didn't answer my question, to be fair. I can only infer that you think we can't change our mind and that democracy was something that happened once, a couple of years ago. I'm... not on board. Once the electorate got more information (for example, what the type of Brexit was) I believe it's democratic to give them a say. It is, after all, a massive decision. 

[Rico1304]

12 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

And if your that outraged by it all why the hell did you vote for a party that offered the opportunity to leave in the first place?

 Because it suited me and I didn’t know about the Russians & lies or that people would be so thick. 

 

To think that if labour had got in would mean this would have gone away is pure bollocks.  UKIP would have got bigger and and as JC is a fan of democracy (as we do often hear) his party would have had to deal with it. Or been in democratic. 

[Captain Howdy]

 I think a referendum is very democratic and if the Govt who offered up that referendum fails to implement it then that is undemocratic, you can’t just keep having them untill you get the result you want, what if we have a second referendum and the people still want to leave would you want a third? There was a campaign on one question and then a vote and the people chose to leave, I didn’t like the result but it’s that straightforward to me. 

[moof]

It does look a bit “you voted wrong the first time, we’ll give you another chance to get it right” 

 

We’ll have to wait until May presents a deal and take it from there, but I don’t see a reasonable way out of this without having a general election to redefine the terms of what brexit actually means. A mandate is badly needed, as well as some kind of consensus between remain and the genuine, valid concerns of many who voted leave. 

[skend04]

Leave politicians were insistent that we wouldn't leave the SM and CU. What is being sold now isn't what was on offer in the referendum. So it's perfectly valid to say that it can be put back to the public. The only problem is that leaders of the main parties have taken the rhetoric so far down the cake and eat it route first and latterly that a No Deal was always an option, that they'd have to look at their position before they looked at another referendum. To sum it up the country is fucked.

[Numero Veinticinco]

I’d happily have a more direct democracy. If something else changed, I’d have no issue with a third one, and a fourth and a fifth. 

 

I think the ‘oh, it’s clear that it was a bunch of lies and we are heading for ruin but tough shit, we had a say a couple of years ago’ line of thinking is both undemocratic and stupid. 

[No2]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I’d happily have a more direct democracy. If something else changed, I’d have no issue with a third one, and a fourth and a fifth. 

 

I think the ‘oh, it’s clear that it was a bunch of lies and we are heading for ruin but tough shit, we had a say a couple of years ago’ line of thinking is both undemocratic and stupid. 

In Ireland we voted and rejected the Lisbon and Nice treaties. Both were amended the terms of the relationship with the EU, after rejecting them the EU went away and amended the bits that were causing concern and put it before the people again. Both were passed 2nd time around.

[Stickman]

10 hours ago, rico1304 said:

 Because it suited me and I didn’t know about the Russians & lies or that people would be so thick. 

 

To think that if labour had got in would mean this would have gone away is pure bollocks.  UKIP would have got bigger and and as JC is a fan of democracy (as we do often hear) his party would have had to deal with it. Or been in democratic. 

So let me get this straight you voted Tory because it suited you?

Even though you voted for a party that had over the course of it's five years in office hit the poorest and weakest in society with massive cuts to their benefits and wages and had promised to do so again and again .

Yet this same group of people when the vote arrived are meant to listen to the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Clegg,  Campbell and various "celebs" telling them that staying in the EU is the best thing for them?

Why would when they had the chance vote for the same system and politicians who had made their life shitty over the last 40 years? Don't they say it's a sign of madness if you keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

Before you say it I agree I think leaving the EU won't in any way shape or form make their lives better but as Bob Dylan said "if you ain't got nothing you got nothing to lose"

 

Oh and calling people "thick" because it didn't suit your lifestyle is another reason why they lost.

 

[Rico1304]

16 minutes ago, Stickman said:

So let me get this straight you voted Tory because it suited you?

Even though you voted for a party that had over the course of it's five years in office hit the poorest and weakest in society with massive cuts to their benefits and wages and had promised to do so again and again .

Yet this same group of people when the vote arrived are meant to listen to the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Clegg,  Campbell and various "celebs" telling them that staying in the EU is the best thing for them?

Why would when they had the chance vote for the same system and politicians who had made their life shitty over the last 40 years? Don't they say it's a sign of madness if you keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

Before you say it I agree I think leaving the EU won't in any way shape or form make their lives better but as Bob Dylan said "if you ain't got nothing you got nothing to lose"

 

Oh and calling people "thick" because it didn't suit your lifestyle is another reason why they lost.

 

Yes, it suited me. What’s wrong with that?  We’ve been over this too many times to repeat it.  

 

Me calling people stupid two years after a vote had zero impact on the result.  

[Section_31]

It's interesting that all the stuff happening now is the stuff that made a lot of people want to leave in the first place.

 

(1) economic scare stories - check 

(2) Nick Clegg and jK Rowling telling you you're a retard- Check

(3) the poor are turkeys who voted for Christmas- Check 

(4) we're such a racist country - check 

 

Also, if we're talking about misinformation, I wonder what grounds Osborne and Cameron's increasingly desperate scare stories would have provided for a second referendum had they won?

 

This is how I see the current state of play:

 

Both sides had cunts and non cunts with genuine reasons for what they wanted.

 

We're better out than in due to the uncertainty of leaving.

 

The EU isn't what it once was.

 

We're not an inherently racist country, certainly not compared to many in the actual EU.

 

Once again, ZERO lessons have been learned from either the election of trump or the Brexit vote. The reasons behind why the poor and disenfranchised voted the way they did continues to be ignored and they continue to be dismissed as racist simpletons - exactly the reason we're here in the first place.

[Anubis]

You voted for the Tories in a general election held after the referendum. You did so knowing that the forces driving the party were happy to see the country put on a bus and driven off the cliff edge into a no deal Brexit.

 

Would Labour have enacted Article 50? Yes, they made it clear they'd honour the referendum vote. Would they have had such a shit relationship with the EU? No. Would they have gone into negotiations armed with a sheet of A4 scribbles and a list of totally unrealistic demands? No. Would they happily consider breaking the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland? No. If they couldn't negotiate access to the market and customs union, would they drive the country off a cliff edge into a no deal Brexit? No. Would they be gaily pushing for us to accept the sort of trade agreements that will see the NHS sold off to American health companies? No. Would they be gaily leading us into a future where worker's rights are slashed? No.

 

That you voted Tory because it suited your personal circumstances is perfectly fine. But let us not pretend that you didn't see where they were heading on Brexit when you did so. Maybe you went for the short-term gain option. Again, that's ok. You are looking out for yourself and your family. But don't complain that it's Labour's fault that you made that choice and the consequences that later flow from it. It's just totally dishonest.

 

As for the Russians, how many of the 17 odd million people who voted leave do you think they actually influenced? I'd estimate about a million at best on social media. The vast majority of those people were driven by arguments presented in the press, or other concerns. My mum and dad both voted leave and it had nothing all to do with the Russians. My mum because she was a child during the war, and was concerned about a unified European Army under Germany and felt that's where the EU was headed - she never quite got over those visits to the bomb shelters and hearing the bombs come down. Experiences like that run deep. My dad voted leave because he's a barely concealed racist and didn't like the fact that people weren't speaking English who were sitting at the front of the bus. His concerns were immigration. I suspect many of the 17 million voted out of their own concerns and the illusion of taking back control of our laws and the NHS promise plastered over the side of a bus. I had some terrible arguments with my parents, showed them everything I could find that indicated why it was a bad idea, but in the end they voted how they saw was best for them. Just like you did in the general election.

 

EDIT: Replying to Rico's post, not Section's - who snuck in there before me.

[Anubis]

Anyway, it looks like Theresa may be about to take a tumble, with Tories giving interviews saying the requisite number of letters will be going into the 1922 committee this week. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Good to see someone is getting prepared for a No-Deal Brexit. 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-its-not-enough-to-say-what-may-happen-after-brexit-11532116?fbclid=IwAR2790JIhLsBKnLzcan1KA2tSG9VznoAIIZjLxd2YNKdAQYM-1luDGUPa18

[AngryOfTuebrook]

38 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

It's interesting that all the stuff happening now is the stuff that made a lot of people want to leave in the first place.

 

(1) economic scare stories - check 

(2) Nick Clegg and jK Rowling telling you you're a retard- Check

(3) the poor are turkeys who voted for Christmas- Check 

(4) we're such a racist country - check 

 

Also, if we're talking about misinformation, I wonder what grounds Osborne and Cameron's increasingly desperate scare stories would have provided for a second referendum had they won?

 

This is how I see the current state of play:

 

Both sides had cunts and non cunts with genuine reasons for what they wanted.

 

We're better out than in due to the uncertainty of leaving.

 

The EU isn't what it once was.

 

We're not an inherently racist country, certainly not compared to many in the actual EU.

 

Once again, ZERO lessons have been learned from either the election of trump or the Brexit vote. The reasons behind why the poor and disenfranchised voted the way they did continues to be ignored and they continue to be dismissed as racist simpletons - exactly the reason we're here in the first place.

Some decent points, but I disagree with a few of them. 

 

Firstly, the economic costs of uncertainty are a very strong reason for remaining in the EU.  

 

Secondly, most (all?) of the noisiest supporters of Brexit, in politics and in the media, really are racists, simpletons, liars and neoliberal fundamentalists. 

 

Finally, I think the Labour leadership have indeed learned lessons, which is why they're not doing what the likes of Umunna want.

[skend04]

15 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Good to see someone is getting prepared for a No-Deal Brexit. 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-its-not-enough-to-say-what-may-happen-after-brexit-11532116?fbclid=IwAR2790JIhLsBKnLzcan1KA2tSG9VznoAIIZjLxd2YNKdAQYM-1luDGUPa18

We are prepared. They forget that we are turning Kent into a lorry park and toilet.

[moof]

Let’s be real. Rico voted Tory because he thought Corbyn was going to nationalise his job. His job that he quit 18 months after the election. 

 

He bought into the red scare. In short, he’s a fucking idiot. And now he wants Corbyn to save him. Hilarious. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, moof said:

Let’s be real. Rico voted Tory because he thought Corbyn was going to nationalise his job. His job that he quit 18 months after the election. 

 

He bought into the red scare. In short, he’s a fucking idiot. And now he wants Corbyn to save him. Hilarious. 

Pipe down and finish your rat.

[Strontium]

4 hours ago, Section_31 said:

Once again, ZERO lessons have been learned from either the election of trump or the Brexit vote.

 

Oh, lessons need to be learned alright, just not by the people you think. As much as I want Brexit stopped, part of me thinks we need to let it go ahead and stop protecting people from the consequences of their actions. Let's see how good their witless complaints seem when cold reality hits them.

[skend04]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Oh, lessons need to be learned alright, just not by the people you think. As much as I want Brexit stopped, part of me thinks we need to let it go ahead and stop protecting people from the consequences of their actions. Let's see how good their witless complaints seem when cold reality hits them.

This 'lessons not learned' and 'sticking it to the elite' argument always makes me laugh. "Yeah, we showed that David Cameron. He might be off earning £600k per year from various directorships and us ordinary people will likely lose jobs and public services but we showed him..."

Utterly bonkers.