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Should the UK remain a member of the EU


Anny Road
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317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      259
    • No
      58


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13 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The left wing liberals telling a welder from Wetherby who has experienced mass unemployment and 10 y years of austerity  to vote for another 10 years of absolute bollocks? Sorry fuck off.. 

Better he votes for a big fat lie which can never be delivered.  I've heard over and over how people had nothing to lose getting into bed with Farridge and his ilk. They are perilously close to finding out they have  

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56 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The left wing liberals telling a welder from Wetherby who has experienced mass unemployment and 10 y years of austerity  to vote for another 10 years of absolute bollocks? Sorry fuck off.. 

Met loads of previously UK based welders over here. Can earn decent cash with it. Shame to lose that option really. 

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How Tiny Moldova’s Brexit Grudge Could Cost the U.K. $1.7 Trillion

 

 

The U.K.’s post-Brexit access to $1.7 trillion in public projects relies on the good will of its European neighbors. Too bad Moldova holds a grudge.

The tiny country wedged between Romania and Ukraine is joining half a dozen nations in blocking the U.K.’s re-entry to the World Trade Organization’s Government Procurement Agreement, an accord that smooths the bidding process on public contracts, including in the $837 billion U.S. market.

Why the hold-up? Corina Cojocaru, Moldova’s ambassador to the WTO, and her team were denied entry to the U.K. last year when they wanted to discuss their future relationship with Britain after it leaves the European Union.

 

And Cojocaru has a good memory.

“I couldn’t get a visa and a diplomatic passport to go to London to negotiate on government procurement,” Cojocaru said in a telephone interview. “Nobody listened to us for six to seven months.”

The U.K. Home Office, which processes visa requests, didn’t immediately comment.

Diplomatic Slight

Brexit backers have wooed Britain with their vision of a buccaneering future as a global trading nation clinching new deals in markets that were previous closed off to them because of their membership in the 28-nation bloc. The reality may be that they’ll be held ransom by every country, like Moldova, that has suffered personal affronts.

For Cojocaru, the diplomatic slight is emblematic of a broader issue: If her delegation wasn’t able to get visas in a timely manner, how could Moldovan suppliers seeking to bid on projects in the U.K. be expected to compete with vendors from nations that have an easier time gaining entry?

 

To read more about U.K. efforts to gain entry to the GPA, click here

Moldova was joined by the U.S., New Zealand Japan, South Korea, Ukraine, and Israel in expressing concern that the U.K. application didn’t pass muster, according to officials familiar with the accession procedure. U.S. reticence was due to the U.K.’s failure to provide requested information and updates.

The purpose of the GPA is to open up government procurement markets to foreign competition, and help make the process more transparent. British officials argue that the U.K. is a special case and should receive expedited approval because it’s already a member -- although it has never independently ratified the agreement -- and can simply replicate its current commitments, deriving from its EU-membership status.

Trade Concessions

While all members of the GPA want to retain access to the U.K.’s 67 billion-pound ($88 billion) public procurement marketplace, they’re still willing to use the opportunity to squeeze some concessions. Some members are seeking increased access to projects such as Britain’s high-speed railways, a Heathrow airport expansion and government IT networks, among others.

And since a majority of the WTO’s agreements are forged by consensus, as is the GPA, each country wields considerable power. GPA members will consider a provisional agreement to the U.K.’s accession bid at the next WTO government procurement committee meeting on Nov. 27.

The U.S., New Zealand and other WTO members have pressed the U.K. to ensure that Brexit doesn’t prevent their companies’ ability to sell more products like lamb, beef and chicken into the U.K. market. The U.S. and New Zealand have already begun procedural moves that presage talks to establish free-trade agreements.

But as Brexit negotiations reach a crescendo, it’s becoming apparent that any detail, however small, can throw a wrench in the U.K.’s attempt to leave the EU with as little disruption as possible.

On Wednesday, after the U.K. bid to join the GPA stalled, “the U.K. minister for immigration contacted our ambassador in London,” Cojocaru said. “I hope they will be able to find a compromise.”

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-10-17/how-tiny-moldova-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion?__twitter_impression=true

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Yes, this idea that you'll be free to sail the seven seas, trading with all and sundry, is laughable.

 

Revamped NAFTA has Canada notifying the US, well in advance, of even the intention of negotiating trade deals with "non-market" countries--ie China.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canada-usmca-1.4845494

 

There is no free trade.

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44 minutes ago, skend04 said:

The Tories will grab the 1 year extension to the transition period thats on offer and that ends any chance of a Labour government in 2022. People aren't going to vote for another party whilst negotiations are on going. That's pissed on the Lexit chips good and proper. 

 

They are trying to not pay the existing bill any extension would cost a substantial amount. Another way to look at it is even more reason for internal fighting amongst them. I'm sure the ERG will be happy with this latest development. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-transition-period-divorce-bill-higher-39-billion-theresa-may-david-davis-eu-a8221941.html

 

Anyway of course people will vote for another party if brexit is even half as disastrous as predicted. 

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1 hour ago, skend04 said:

The Tories will grab the 1 year extension to the transition period thats on offer and that ends any chance of a Labour government in 2022. People aren't going to vote for another party whilst negotiations are on going. That's pissed on the Lexit chips good and proper. 

If we haven't left the EU 6 years after the referendum, 0% of Right wingers will be voting Tory.

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7 hours ago, MegadriveMan said:

If we haven't left the EU 6 years after the referendum, 0% of Right wingers will be voting Tory.

The problem the Tories have is that they've wasted two years because they gave the job of negotiating a deal to people (Davies and Johnson) who are perfectly happy to crash out with no deal (because that's the best scenario for disaster capitalists). They did this to pander to the right wing of the party; yet another example of them putting petty factionalism ahead of the national interest.

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Mad Nad trying to throw the latest May debacle on Labour and the Lib Dem's toes by insinuation. And since when has she given a shit about people struggling on Universal Credit.

 

 

 
Quote

 

We cannot find the money to fund our front line police properly. We cannot find the £2b for the vulnerable on UC, but we can mysteriously find billions to bung to the EU for the unnecessary extra year Clegg and Blair asked Barnier for to waylay Brexit??

This is serious.

 

 
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15 hours ago, Anny Road said:

Here is an iidea.

Dont buy it.

A fair proportion of this trade will be into wholesale, used as an ingredient.  People won't have much, if any, oversight over what they're actually consuming when they eat out, or buy anything processed.  You might be able to prepare every meal yourself, for a lot of families that's not a practical or cost-effective option.

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2 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The problem the Tories have is that they've wasted two years because they gave the job of negotiating a deal to people (Davies and Johnson) who are perfectly happy to crash out with no deal (because that's the best scenario for disaster capitalists). They did this to pander to the right wing of the party; yet another example of them putting petty factionalism ahead of the national interest.

 

 

A border was going into the Irish sea or a hard border was going up, one of those things needed to happen for a deal to be agreed and nobody will ever be in a position to sign off on either.

 

I don't think it would have made much difference if they sent the best negotiator ever born. Once the UK voted for Brexit every option is a million times worse than the status quo. 

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On 9/4/2018 at 1:23 PM, skend04 said:

LBC conducted a poll and 60% of leave voters are willing for the country to drop into recession as long as we leave the EU. Fucking. Mentalists.

 

On 9/4/2018 at 1:42 PM, deiseach said:

This is not necessarily unreasonable. If it's a price you are willing to pay for 'freedom', fine. The problem is, and I know I'm repeating myself here, they expect other people will pay the price.

 

Exhibit A.

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43 minutes ago, No2 said:

 

 

A border was going into the Irish sea or a hard border was going up, one of those things needed to happen for a deal to be agreed and nobody will ever be in a position to sign off on either.

 

I don't think it would have made much difference if they sent the best negotiator ever born. Once the UK voted for Brexit every option is a million times worse than the status quo. 

 

I guess it depends what the definition of Brexit is and do people value outcomes solely in GDP. It was decided early on by most politicians that only leaving the single market and customs union means a "true brexit"  this differed substantially from the campaigning position of the leave campaign. 

 

The torys red lines boxed them into a corner, Labour's position has evolved over the same period. Some have made the case the lack of trust and insults hasn't helped and has contributed to the backstop position. This isn't even mentioning misleading her own cabinet and appointed negotiating person (David Davies) This from March.

 

Take it from a former British EU negotiator—May will regret destroying trust in these negotiations

Deliberate disregard for basic negotiating principles will come back to haunt the government

 

It’s fair to say that the Brexit negotiations are not going well. Stalled over the lack of a credible solution to the Irish border issue, and with the prime minister touting a vision of a future relationship that had, at the point it was announced, already been ruled out by the EU27, the clock ticks ominously.

Donald Tusk rightly said there is no cake on the table for anyone from Brexit, just salt and vinegar for everyone. All will lose from any Brexit, and the UK will lose much more than the EU27. A no-deal Brexit though would harm the UK and its people in ways we haven’t even realised yet. Without a serious change in policy from the UK though, that is again a possibility.

One of the main reasons we are in this position is that the UK government has continued to have a total and apparently deliberate disregard for the fundamental negotiating concepts of trust and goodwill.

It’s wrong to think, as many in government seem to, of the Brexit negotiations as a poker game. Being unwilling to “show your hand” in negotiations is a route to failure. In poker, you use secrecy, misdirection and uncertainty to stack the odds in favour of you winning and, crucially, your opponent losing. Negotiations, in contrast, are about finding ways for both sides to be happy, or, in Brexit, at least not lose out too badly. If you won’t tell your opposite numbers what you want, it is impossible for them to give it to you.

Establishing and maintaining trust and goodwill is not about being nice or giving in. It’s in your own self-interest. To get anywhere near the outcome you want, you’re going to need to get concessions from your opposite numbers and will have to be able to offer the same to them. They also need to know they can take you at your word and that you will honour the agreements you make.

When I was negotiating for the UK, I would keep two annotated lists pinned above my desk. One was the list of our primary and secondary objectives, so I could see easily what had been agreed so far and what was still to be done. The other was a list of my opposite numbers, and the last time I had been for coffee with each of them to listen to and understand their positions, explain our own, and look for solutions together. The two lists were equally important.

 

Yet the UK government has burned trust and goodwill at every stage. Inflammatory and insulting language (as pointed out by UK MEPs last week) has served to sour relations. Posturing and table thumping has ruined credibility. Attempts to divide EU member States have not only failed, but have helped to break down trust. That the government is willing to mislead its own people (“exact same” rights for citizens and access to the Single Market anyone?) and misrepresent the EU27’s position is noted in Brussels, and not forgotten easily.

The UK government’s inability to agree policy among itself has meant that EU negotiators do not know whether the person across the table is genuinely speaking for the government or not. When positions have finally arrived, they have been internally contradictory, and based on things that the EU27 have already ruled out as being not on the table, or in some cases impossible under EU law for them to agree to. The government has then portrayed the EU27 as bullying and unwilling to compromise.

By offering a wide choice of options, and clarity on the rights and responsibilities attached to each, the EU27 have already compromised. It could have picked its preferred option and negotiated on that basis. Some may now be wondering why it didn’t, when even the more generous position has been painted as a hostile act in the UK.

We see the effect of this lack of trust and goodwill most starkly in the current impasse over the Irish border. The UK position has been based on a very obvious bluff—that either a future trade relationship or a technological solution will solve the problem. Having gone along with the bluff for the sake of the negotiations, and to save the PM from her own political difficulties, the EU27 were met with immediate attempts to roll back from or downplay the Phase One agreement. The UK has still made no proposals for either of its own preferred solutions.

Having concluded that they, and Ireland, care substantially more about this than the UK government does, and burned by breaches of trust and goodwill, the EU27 have finally had enough of the UK’s bluff, and have called it. Hence their proposal for the “backstop” option of Northern Ireland remaining in the Customs Union, and, largely, as part of the Single Market.

This has been met with howls of “betrayal” and “annexation,” of course. In an atmosphere of mutual trust and neighbourly goodwill, perhaps the EU27 would have been willing to let the UK maintain the bluff and kick the can further down the road. Maybe they would have looked for solutions that meet the UK’s self-imposed red lines. At this stage though, why would they?

The government has gained nothing from this all except for a bit of jingoistic fervour to keep people’s attention from the unfolding disaster. It must now find its own solutions, and cannot expect to be helped to make things more palatable at home (as the EU27 did with it for the financial settlement), or for EU27 to take account of the perilous political position the PM finds herself in. They tried that, and got nothing but vinegar back.

In a process with no winners, the government has nonetheless managed to ensure that it will be the undisputed loser

 

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/brexit-take-it-from-a-former-british-eu-negotiator-may-will-regret-burning-trust-in-these-negotiations

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On 10/16/2018 at 10:59 PM, AngryofTuebrook said:

I'm not convinced that the Tories wouldn’t get battered if they called a General Election tomorrow; and nor are they, which is why it won't happen. They got burned by their "crush the saboteurs" hubris so they've re-learned the central tenet of Toryism: when you've got power, do anything to hold on to it.

 

The current turmoil in the party just means that the racists and the neoliberal fundamentalists are in the ascendancy.  These are the people who will be in charge of Brexit.  It will happen on their terms.

 

I don't envy anyone in the room with Gnasher when he wakes up to that fact.

 

Well lets remember a few truths about the Tories before and after Brexit as you like to be so concerned.

 

The Tory party before the referendum had Cameron and Osborne at the helm which the bbc and msm fucking loved.  They were untouchable as they inflected a 10 year reign of austerity backed terror (condonded by the much lauded eu) which led to destitution of  the poorest and most  vunerable members of this country, there seemed no way out.

 

Since the referendum the Tory party is a divided mess of right wing  lunatics squabbling in a dack.

 

Good.

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26 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

Well lets remember a few truths about the Tories before and after Brexit as you like to be so concerned.

 

The Tory party before the referendum had Cameron and Osborne at the helm which the bbc and msm fucking loved.  They were untouchable as they inflected a 10 year reign of austerity backed terror (condonded by the much lauded eu) which led to destitution of  the poorest and most  vunerable members of this country, there seemed no way out.

 

Since the referendum the Tory party is a divided mess of right wing  lunatics squabbling in a dack.

 

Good.

They are even more brutal than Cameron and Osborne were and they are going to stay in power until 2022.  Have a read of The Shock Doctrine between now and March, just so you can see what the racist disaster capitalists who are now running the country have in store for us.  You ain't seen nothin' yet.

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I can’t help feeling that we took the whole thing for granted. I don’t remember hearing about new trade deals on the news, or concessions we’d won when we didn’t quite fancy some EU legislation. 

 

Years ago I knew a rat faced cunt who had the fittest bird you’ve ever seen. She idolised him and he treated her like shit.  He dumped her eventually and I lost touch with him as started playing football for another team. Went to a benefit night at the pub we played from and he’s a bitter cunt.  No sign of her. 

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I only read the Daily Telegraph, so I presumed it must have been cancelled.  Not a dickie bird about hundreds of thousands of citizens turning out on the streets of London.

 

Well I say there was nothing, there was nothing in the news section.  Just a sneering editorial mocking anti-Tory banners.

 

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