Heysel 30 years on

[FanchesterCity]

All of football was infested with hooliganism, and English clubs abroad played up to the notorious reputation. It was a chicken and egg situation too. English fans reputation was troublesome, which then led other clubs to taunt / take on the English fans. 

 

Liverpool took the brunt of the blame as they were the prominent English club in Europe, and had a huge fan base to go along with it. That's not to say some of the Liverpool contingent weren't to blame (they were), but ALL clubs had a similar contingent in their ranks. In that respect, I don't believe Liverpool were any worse than others.

 

Although, as with most disasters, Heysel was a combination of poor decisions (poor stadium, lousy segregation and ticketing arrangements) and hooliganism, it was the hooliganism that the world saw and remembers. It set back English football, and LFC at least a decade, arguably longer.

 

What is more tragic is that people have started to paint that era of hooliganism with rose coloured specs and claiming they were 'fond times to remember' etc. They weren't, they were dark years, caused my utter morons. 

 

Juventus and Liverpool both paid a price for the behaviour of some of their fans, and many innocent people died as a result. But it's done now, and nothing can change it. The greatest respect anybody can pay is to make sure it never happens again.

 

Heysel absolutely influenced public perception of Hillsborough, and in the absence of many facts, it's understandable how many people jumped to all the wrong conclusions (initially). The fact that it was the same club involved only added to the belief that fan behaviour was to blame.

 

Of course, anybody who then took time to discover the truth, quickly realised Heysel and Hillsborough were massively different situations, but for the many who never did seek out the truth, they paired Heysel and Hillsborough together.

 

I don't think LFC will ever really erase that night from the public's memory as it was so dramatic, but it's also an easy and cheap shot for critics to throw in Liverpool's faces. It's just always going to be there as part of the the tragedy and triumph of Liverpool's history.

 

The morons who chant about it though, are the very same types of morons that fought on the terraces back then. They still lurk in the shadows of all clubs and need calling out on their actions. 

[Bellflower]

From what I recall, the trouble started because there were our supporters in the Juventus section , Z I think it was. This was the result of people buying spares off of the Italians, not realising that it was a segregated end. A mate of mine bought one but he came into section  X with us as there wasn't really anyone checking tickets. Those inside section Z  weren't really Anny Roaders , so they pushed up against the wire fence away from the Italians and you could see a clear gap between both groups. There was some  tame abuse and bread roll throwing going on between both , but then bits of broken terrace started coming back and some at the fringe got smacked as well. Our lads in section Y saw this so climbed over the fence to help out and it escalated from there.

From then on people from Y and Z went over, and about a dozen went past me to get there, they were Dutch and wearing England hats and scarves.............  

[xerxes]

What is more tragic is that people have started to paint that era of hooliganism with rose coloured specs and claiming they were 'fond times to remember' etc. They weren't, they were dark years, caused my utter morons.

A good post in full.

 

That year our average home attendance was 34,444, we finished second and had one of the best years in our history the year before. Ten years earlier our average home attendance was 45,966,when we finished second. In ten years we had lost 10,000 off our home gates, 10,000 sickened by the routine violence that blighted the game. That decline, and worse was reflected throughout the league.

 

It was no golden age for football supporting, and the "hooligan chivalry" which is endemic in most hoolie books, is a myth. It was predominantly about larger groups picking off smaller groups and individuals.

 

To be fair to most Reds, the nostalgic glorification of football violence present on the boards of other clubs is generally absent from Liverpool ones, the glamorisation of injury and death at a football game is not something we go in for.

[Mook]

 

I don't think LFC will ever really erase that night from the public's memory as it was so dramatic, but it's also an easy and cheap shot for critics to throw in Liverpool's faces. It's just always going to be there as part of the the tragedy and triumph of Liverpool's history.

 

Do you think Liverpool FC have tried to erase that night from the public's memory?

 

I see other supports saying this all the time & it's fucking stupid, in what way have Liverpool FC tried to erase the memory? As far as I'm aware, the club pulled itself from European competition before Thatcher or UEFA had got a hold of it & issued the blanket ban.

[ratcatcher]

A good post in full.

 

That year our average home attendance was 34,444, we finished second and had one of the best years in our history the year before. Ten years earlier our average home attendance was 45,966,when we finished second. In ten years we had lost 10,000 off our home gates, 10,000 sickened by the routine violence that blighted the game. That decline, and worse was reflected throughout the league.

 

It was no golden age for football supporting, and the "hooligan chivalry" which is endemic in most hoolie books, is a myth. It was predominantly about larger groups picking off smaller groups and individuals.

 

To be fair to most Reds, the nostalgic glorification of football violence present on the boards of other clubs is generally absent from Liverpool ones, the glamorisation of injury and death at a football game is not something we go in for.

 

Football violence in 1985 or the 10 years before, didnt knock 10,000 off our gates.

 

Rampant thatcherism and 3 million plus unemployment nationally and higher percentage wise on Merseyside and the rest of the north, did.

 

Football related violence was far more common throughout the 70's and didnt affect the gates.

 

As usual, you pluck nonsense out of your arse. You really do talk shite.

[xerxes]

Football violence in 1985 or the 10 years before, didnt knock 10,000 off our gates.Rampant thatcherism and 3 million plus unemployment nationally and higher percentage wise on Merseyside and the rest of the north, did. 

Football related violence was far more common throughout the 70's and didnt affect the gates.As usual, you pluck nonsense out of your arse. You really do talk shite.

Your posts have descended into entertainment value only, I do enjoy them.

 

In 1974-75 league average attendances for the four divisions were 12,600, in 1984-5 they had reduced to 8,791. A reduction of around 30%, compared to ours at around 25%.

 

As a veteran of 70's and 80's football I can confirm that violence progressed relentlessly over that period.

 

Liverpool as a city was hit hard by Thatcherism, but cheap football was a release, not prohibitive- for those who enjoyed the violence or were prepared to brave it. As the figures show, the decline was steep, the effect nationwide.

 

I hope that helps.

 

(Talk us through AVB's record in Russia one more time :D)

[ratcatcher]

Your posts have descended into entertainment value only, I do enjoy them.

 

In 1974-75 league average attendances for the four divisions were 12,600, in 1984-5 they had reduced to 8,791. A reduction of around 30%, compared to ours at around 25%.

 

As a veteran of 70's and 80's football I can confirm that violence progressed relentlessly over that period.

 

Liverpool as a city was hit hard by Thatcherism, but cheap football was a release, not prohibitive- for those who enjoyed the violence or were prepared to brave it. As the figures show, the decline was steep, the effect nationwide.

 

I hope that helps.

 

(Talk us through AVB's record in Russia one more time :D)

 

I dont think you are a vetran of the 70's at all. If you were,you'd know the 70's was a time when you went to away games in the knowledge that you were going to end up facing the oppos 'firm.' That applied not just in the first division but all 4 leagues.

 

Football specials were routinely trashed before being withdrawn by a fed up British Rail. It didnt curtail attendances one bit.

 

In any event, the economics of the time drove down our crowds, not violence. The Anny Road was made into all seating, the Kop capacity was reduced to around 16,000 standing from previous highs of 20,000 plus.

 

But if you want to spin yet another yarn albeit inaccurate yet again, knock yourself out.

 

Why dont you enlighten us all on Vilas Boas russian record? 'AVB' and smileys? Guffaws.

[xerxes]

I dont think you are a vetran (sic)of the 70's at all.

Inaccuracies?!

 

Keep on coming, I'm loving it!

 

And who is this Vilas (sic) Boas of whom you speak :D ?

 

Look, I know you are a sound match-going Red, so I won't take the piss out of you anymore, mainly because you will continue doing it to yourself!

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Inaccuracies?!

 

Keep on coming, I'm loving it!

 

And who is this Vilas (sic) Boas of whom you speak :D ?

 

Look, I know you are a sound match-going Red, so I won't take the piss out of you anymore, mainly because you will continue doing it to yourself!

Stop being a gobshite and hijacking a fairly serious thread.

[ratcatcher]

Inaccuracies?!

 

Keep on coming, I'm loving it!

 

And who is this Vilas (sic) Boas of whom you speak :D ?

 

"Keep on coming"? For someone attempting to take a stance on grammar, what the fuck is that?

 

People, glasshouses, stones. I'll let you fill in the rest. That's if you can.

[xerxes]

Do you think Liverpool FC have tried to erase that night from the public's memory?

 

I see other supports saying this all the time & it's fucking stupid, in what way have Liverpool FC tried to erase the memory? As far as I'm aware, the club pulled itself from European competition before Thatcher or UEFA had got a hold of it & issued the blanket ban.

I agree.

 

We made the best of a very bad hand. We paid a heavy price on the field too, the loss of Euro football damaged the club and was the start point in the eyes of many of our decline, even though our domestic success ran for the rest of the decade. It also marked the end of an era when we were a significant voice in UEFA.

[Harry Squatter]

RIP the 39.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

RIP.

[Dicko]

Heysel was horrible.

But that article is fucking fiction.

 

All kinds contributed to the disaster, but when all is said and done if we hadn't have charged it wouldn't have happened.

 

And don't get too hung up on Liverpool not acknowledging it very much, the Drughi have similar views about their own club.

[boomer39]

I was at the disaster, I was 21 and been to Rome the year before which was like Beirut on a good day , the day started great, we got to the town centre on a sunny and hot day the atmosphere was typical good natured lots of singing and everyone have a great time, by mid-afternoon the mood changed.

We made our way to the stadium early evening a good two hours before kick-off; it was a total riot outside, best described as a war zone, bottles getting thrown, and the floor littered with stubby bottles of Stella, Italians waving Samurai swords and guns at us, it was a nightmare and like a scene out of a war zone, control was lost by authorities , when one of the lads asked a copper what was going on he got the coppers shield over his head, we had to tend to him in an ambulance until he came around , we made our way around to our end  and were water cannoned and briked by Italians , hooded ultra shit houses some had hand guns.

We entered the ground through a hole in the wall, still have my ticket, the sewers went underneath us and we were walking in shit and piss, it was like holding an event a condemned building site, everything was crumbling around us including order.

The riot happened over an hour so police had enough time to form a segregating line , I watched on in disbelief ,what I do remember was how young and inexperienced the police  were and I was only 21 myself.

The rest is kind of fuzzy, I remember seeing all the dead piled up and Phil Neal on the tanoy asking for calm, I remember the game but not much of it, I remember Platini doing a lap of honour celebrating, weird, we were lucky they won, because believe me there would have been more casualties after the game, the celebrations gave us a window of opportunity to get the fuck out of there.

We managed to get to Brussels central metro ,and then on to dover I will swear on anything and say the train was full of cockneys buzzing, that’s a fact I was there ask others, Liverpool fans who took part in the Riot have the deaths of the 39 on their hands , there is no getting away from that, but again all of this could have been avoided if a different venue was chosen fit for purpose, what surprises me is  no one has ever asked for testimonies, RIP the 39  

that has to be the best reply ever.. cheers, fella, . my brother was at rome with his son and had to shield him from stones etc.. next year his son went to the heysel and like you , came home with his ticket..... 

[Reckoner]

Good article of testimonies in the Guardian today.

 

 

Phil Neal doesn't cover himself with glory. His bits below, the article itself is quite long so i'll just post a link.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/apr/03/newsstory.sport

 

 

Phil Neal

Then: Liverpool captain, 34

Now: Merseyside Radio commentator

 

I'd rather forget that night. It was an ordeal. But, Jamie, why should I help you out? I'm helping you pay your mortgage [by talking to you about Heysel]. When people ask me for my view, they usually have to pay for it. You're asking for my help for nothing. To pay your mortgage, Jamie. I mean, what do you want from me?

 

I just thought that as the captain of Liverpool football club on that night at Heysel it would be good to hear your view?

 

Yes but what do you want from me? If I talk to you for a few minutes, then I'm helping you pay your mortgage and what am I getting in return? Do you know what I mean?

 

Well, I have been to Italy and talked with some of the families of the victims and they say that the trophy should be given back by Juventus to commemorate what happened.

 

About Juventus? Why are you asking me? Why are you asking someone on the Liverpool side? Juventus made amends very soon. Ask them ... Jamie I'm helping you pay your mortgage. People who want my views pay.

 

I'm sorry, but everyone else I have spoken to has ...

 

Great. So you've spoken to people, you've got your views. You've got your Liverpool view, but if you want mine for free, well people pay for them.

[littletedwest]

That's a powerful article.

 

Phil neal comes across as a massive prick. I understand his point but it comes across that he is happy to revisit unhappy memories for a few quid.

[Paco]

Phil Neal

Then: Liverpool captain, 34

Now: Merseyside Radio commentator

 

I'd rather forget that night. It was an ordeal. But, Jamie, why should I help you out? I'm helping you pay your mortgage [by talking to you about Heysel]. When people ask me for my view, they usually have to pay for it. You're asking for my help for nothing. To pay your mortgage, Jamie. I mean, what do you want from me?

 

I just thought that as the captain of Liverpool football club on that night at Heysel it would be good to hear your view?

 

Yes but what do you want from me? If I talk to you for a few minutes, then I'm helping you pay your mortgage and what am I getting in return? Do you know what I mean?

 

Well, I have been to Italy and talked with some of the families of the victims and they say that the trophy should be given back by Juventus to commemorate what happened.

 

About Juventus? Why are you asking me? Why are you asking someone on the Liverpool side? Juventus made amends very soon. Ask them ... Jamie I'm helping you pay your mortgage. People who want my views pay.

 

I'm sorry, but everyone else I have spoken to has ...

 

Great. So you've spoken to people, you've got your views. You've got your Liverpool view, but if you want mine for free, well people pay for them.

 

 

 

 

anybody see this in the guardian? jamie jackson whoever he is interviewed various players etc from both sides. hes done neal up like a kipper here.

[Paco]

didnt kenny get the managers job over him and kenny confirmed it to ronnie whelan or someone on the way back from Belgium?

 

bad time all round for neal.

[bouncebrigade]

We won it three times without killing anyone.

 

(Well, except for Paul Nixon, you massive bunch of helmets.)

[Harry Squatter]

didnt kenny get the managers job over him and kenny confirmed it to ronnie whelan or someone on the way back from Belgium?

 

bad time all round for neal.

There was him, Chris Lawler and possibly Roy Evans but John Smith chose Kenny. I think it was already decided before the game as Joe Fagan had already said he was leaving.

 

He does come across as a bit of a tit in that interview though.

 

Reading the bit at the end identifying the suspects and going round to their houses to collar them. Some had te same stuff they wore on the terraces on the washing line when they raided te house.

[ratcatcher]

When Joe Fagan was made manager, he said he was only keeping the seat warm for a 'younger man.'

 

I cannot see Chris Lawler, great servant to the club that he was, was the young man in mind. Im not sure Lalwer was even on the backroom staff at that point. He was part of Kenny's backroom and had the ignominy of being the first person sacked at Anfield for many a year.

 

I always took Joe's comments to point towards Kenny Dalglish and not Phil Neal. Was just a feeling I had.

[Harry Squatter]

He was in the frame as he was the reserve team coach and had won the Reserve league twice as well as bringing on Jan Molby. It was completely out the blue that they asked KD, even he had no idea.

[littletedwest]

my cousins support Bolton. When Phil neal managed them he made their current team looks like real Madrid. even got them relegated to the old division 4.

so i'm glad we passed.

[Harry Squatter]

RIP the 39