The Atomic bombing of Nagasaki

[Skidfingers McGonical]

.....said absolutely no one in August 1945.

You are just picking on me because I beat you in xpert eleven.

 

I take on board what you and others have said, Obviously I wasn't around in 1945 so obviously my feelings on nuclear weapons are very different to someone from that time. 

 

It was a horrible act of war, as Dresden was. I don't feel that dropping a nuclear bomb was that necessary when a complete blanket bombing would have surely had the same effect of ending the war sooner?

 

Both horrible acts but carpet bombing is less nasty than dropping nuclear bombs. 

 

Just call me pot smoking hippy. 

[Kevin D]

[neko]

You are just picking on me because I beat you in xpert eleven.

 

I take on board what you and others have said, Obviously I wasn't around in 1945 so obviously my feelings on nuclear weapons are very different to someone from that time. 

 

It was a horrible act of war, as Dresden was. I don't feel that dropping a nuclear bomb was that necessary when a complete blanket bombing would have surely had the same effect of ending the war sooner?

 

Both horrible acts but carpet bombing is less nasty than dropping nuclear bombs. 

 

Just call me pot smoking hippy. 

 

That's funny - I was thinking of writing the same thing. Nothing personal Skids  - I just hate getting beat. 

[Robbo29]

I would rather be carpet bombed to death than blown up by the payload of Enola Gay, must be better to be killed that way

[Lee909]

 

 

Horrible as it was carpet bombing would have had a similar effect. Look at the firebombing of Tokyo. The houses being mostly wood and paper set the city alight,uo to 200,000 deaths and one million people displaced. Around the same as both atomic bombs combined.

[Section_31]

I think it was the 50 anniversary of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima that really made me shake my head at people passing judgement on the moral aspects of the decision.

 

I was in England and reading the Manchester Guardian, which had a sanctimonious article about how it was totally wrong, yet they couldn't even get the airplane correct in the article (they called it a B-52).

 

Never read the paper again.

 

Too easy (or ignorant) to say it was wrong.

 

Agreed. 

 

The baffling thing is the very same paper will be giving it the 'home is the hero' bollocks everytime 1 Para comes back from brutalising Basra's market stall holders. 

[neko]

Exactly, Dresden and Tokyo killed just as many (if not more) and I'm sure it wasn't a swift and painless death for most either.

 

The only valid argument against using the atomic bomb (as opposed to using conventional weapons) was that it was done to send a message to the Russians, as the the cold war was set to begin.

 

Still, context and all that.....

[Lee909]

 

That is one haunting picture.

Hopefully we'll never be in situation needing a war.

 

It's not actually a shadow it is the carbon imprint of their body seared into the concrete. The organic residue and carbonized flesh is part of the sidewalk now.

[Lee909]

Exactly, Dresden and Tokyo killed just as many (if not more) and I'm sure it wasn't a swift and painless death for most either.

 

The only valid argument against using the atomic bomb (as opposed to using conventional weapons) was that it was done to send a message to the Russians, as the the cold war was set to begin.

 

Still, context and all that.....

The description of the Dresden and other firebombing in Anthony Beevors is horrific. Talks of the roads melting and people getting stuck running away.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Necessary.

[Section_31]

The description of the Dresden and other firebombing in Anthony Beevors is horrific. Talks of the roads melting and people getting stuck running away.

 

Happened on all sides though, it takes a wolf to catch a wolf, you can't moralise when you're trying to defeat empires that were the most cruel and murderous the world has literally, literally ever seen. 

 

That was one of the things I took away from a trip to Auschwitz. I remember standing on the tracks on an eerily warm summer's day and looking at the gate, feeling this unbelievable sense of pride that my granddad's generation had risked and given their lives to smash down  these unspeakable cunts, it was an absolute good. All options were, and should have been, on the table. 

[Duncan Clench]

I do think the fact that it was an atomic bomb brought an end to the war faster than if it were blanket bombing. Imagine the leaders of Japan and Germany thinking "Fuck, how many of THESE have they got? We've got no chance.".

[Section_31]

I do think the fact that it was an atomic bomb brought an end to the war faster than if it were blanket bombing. Imagine the leaders of Japan and Germany thinking "Fuck, how many of THESE have they got? We've got no chance.".

 

Agreed. 

 

It's like being in the middle of a pub brawl and suddenly shooting someone, it's the ultimate game changer, all bravado suddenly finds its way into their underpants. 

[Lee909]

Happened on all sides though, it takes a wolf to catch a wolf, you can't moralise when you're trying to defeat empires that were the most cruel and murderous the world has literally, literally ever seen.

 

That was one of the things I took away from a trip to Auschwitz. I remember standing on the tracks on an eerily warm summer's day and looking at the gate, feeling this unbelievable sense of pride that my granddad's generation had risked and given their lives to smash down these unspeakable cunts, it was an absolute good. All options were, and should have been, on the table.

Don't disagree one bit.

But listening to the description was horrible. One of them things you can't put down or look away. It was like rereading "In harms way". Which surprisingly in intertwined in this story. Its the book of tbe sinking of the USS Indianapolis. The plane carried parts of the bomb and was sunk. Crew spent days in the ocean shark attacks etc.

[Em City]

There is an alternative historical theory which states that the real reason for the Japanese surrender was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria on 9 August which shattered any hope the Japanese hierarchy had of obtaining support from the Soviet arising from the pact they had signed with them in 1941.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria#Aftermath

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_Neutrality_Pact

 

When you think about it logically, it makes more sense. This a state and a military that chose to banzai charge to their death rather than surrender when down to their last few thousand men and piloted planes into ships as part of their offensive strategy.

Plus, Emperor Hirohito and the rest of the Japanese elite did not care in the slightest about the plight of the general population.

All of these factors were present within a context where surrender was deemed the most shameful act of all, something so vile that death was the preferred option.

[Lee909]

Not sure if add Hirohito in with the ministers. What i have read about him has him as a unusual man. The ministers held the power there,he was to rule but not govern. Quite strange and i need to read more of the book i am reading. I do think that seeing the devastation would have had a massive impact on them. Wars change once they hit your doorstep. They knew the next bomb would be Tokyo and most likely the Emperor's palace.

 

The Japanese had defeated the Russians in the early 1900s and it brought Japan into the world powers.

 

[Paulie Dangerously]

A museum over here has started an interesting project, where they send out tweets via their Tweeter of the events towards the end of WW2 "as they happened" 70 years ago to the minute. They are worded as is stuff was happening just now.

What's the Twitter name?

[Boss]

Unbelievable how the victor writes history. This was one of the most atrocious acts of all time but gets very little press and is only positive when mentioned.

The good ol' US of A.

 

The Americans have an uncanny ability to rewrite history in their favour, how can anyone forget Tom Cruise in the Battle of Britain saving the hapless British from the Germans, or U-571 where the Americans captured the enigma machine. You only have to look at their depiction of the 'Red Indians' in Hollywood to see how they paint systematic genocide.

 

Only they could somehow spin the genocide of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians into a celebration of them saving the world. The irony seems to be lost on them when the annual outpouring of grief happens on 9/11, a similar scenario on a much smaller scale. 

[Lee909]

How would you have won the war without them?

 

200,000 dead or a few million on a land invasion?

 

It's shot either way

[neko]

Not sure if add Hirohito in with the ministers. What i have read about him has him as a unusual man. The ministers held the power there,he was to rule but not govern. Quite strange and i need to read more of the book i am reading. I do think that seeing the devastation would have had a massive impact on them. Wars change once they hit your doorstep. They knew the next bomb would be Tokyo and most likely the Emperor's palace. The Japanese had defeated the Russians in the early 1900s and it brought Japan into the world powers.

 

What book is this you're reading ?

[Brownie]

Interesting subject. Taking what i've read into account i'd say it was necessary to end the war but having said that it's a sad state of affairs for mankind in general when you feel the need to do something like that.

 

What an indictment of the human race.

[neko]

I know it's fashionable (and largely justified) to trash the USA, but let's not pretend that the Australians, British, Dutch, Canadians, French and all the nations who fought against the Japanese (or occupied by the Japanese) were not entirely thrilled with the atomic bombing of Japan.

 

Again, context.

[Lee909]

What book is this you're reading ?

I say reading but its a audible book.

Its 42hrs long. Good so far and the war has not started yet. Covering the rise of different political powers and the internal assassination of high officials.

 

The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 by John Toland

 

This Pulitzer Prize-winning history of World War II chronicles the dramatic rise and fall of the Japanese empire, from the invasion of Manchuria and China to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Told from the Japanese perspective, The Rising Sun is, in the author's words, "a factual saga of people caught up in the flood of the most overwhelming war of mankind, told as it happened - muddled, ennobling, disgraceful, frustrating, full of paradox."

 

In weaving together the historical facts and human drama leading up to and culminating in the war in the Pacific, Toland crafts a riveting and unbiased narrative history.

[Stu Monty]

Dan Carlin did a pretty brilliant podcast about this type of quandry on his Hardcore History podcast (I think he might actually reference that book that talks about the roads melting and the streets being turned into fire).

 

http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-42-blitz-logical-insanity/

 

It's free at the moment but looks like it's the oldest one still available for free so will be the next one to go behind a paywall at some point. Grab it now.

 

For me it's never a simple answer but it does make me laugh when people cite the fact that it had to be done because winning the war other ways would have been difficult/more painful/impossible but will then happily condemn someone killing a couple of dozen people in a market by blowing themselves up. 

 

Not sure about that claim that they were the most cruel people in history Section, there have been some pretty strong contenders for that title down the years and it's only human advancement that allowed them to be the most murderous. The Khans might be feeling like you've just put their noses out of joint there.

[Lee909]

The Aztecs could well be the biggest bastards that i have read about.

 

The Khans are fascinating

So much destruction but so many innovations as they turned into other dynasties in India/China and parts of Arabia.

 

The Pony express was a Mongol idea