Islamic Positive Thread

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I don't think people are defending religion, they are attacking over-simplification and over-generalization.

Quite right. This is a complex issue that runs very deep with people. The amount of debate that goes on within religious circles indicates that. It can be adequately dismissed with a sentance.

[Rico1304]

Come on, seriously, are you really trying to simplify this down to binary after the statement I just made?

No, you've answered it perfectly. If it was yes you'd have said so and linked me lots of stats, reports and such.

[Section_31]

I think with any movement that involves human beings, you run the risk of moderates - who tend to make up the vast majority - being overwhelmed and taken over by the extremists, who tend to make up the minority. 

 

The grimmer the situation for the majority, the easier that is to do. 

 

It was the same in 30s Germany, it's happened here with capitalism, it happened with socialism, started by interlectuals with noble intent and perverted by bloodthirsty aggressors like Stalin, it did - and does - happen with christianity too, but it's just that christian countries tend to be more diverse and the people more well educated, people tend to accept christianity as their religion rather than have it imposed on them in school and maintained for the rest of their lives, not these days any way. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Brilliant, just brilliant. That's the best one yet, little women best off in the home. How about being given the choice to do it?

 

The Koran sets the frame work for oppression, seeing as it was written about 1500 years before the car Id be impressed if it mentioned them. It does mention their word being worth half that of a man etc etc.

Negged for talking shite.

 

The point is that there are plenty of women who do have the choice to practice their religion and they choose Islam.  They don't need paternalistic pricks to assume that they must be oppressed and therefore need a big strong atheist man to liberate them.

 

The Koran gives women far, far more rights than the Jewish or Christian books do.

[Jairzinho]

Agreed, Sect. Was about to make the same point about capitalism. Then my phone spacked out which, frankly, is concrete proof.

[Rotpeter]

No, you've answered it perfectly. If it was yes you'd have said so and linked me lots of stats, reports and such.

Not me.  I'm of the rationalist school.  That empirical stuff is beneath me.

[Rico1304]

Not me.  I'm of the rationalist school.  That empirical stuff is beneath me.

I'd imagine you think most of us are beneath you.

 

For the rest have a read of Nice Mangos and Aliyah Saleem on Twitter and their blogs etc.

[Dr Nowt]

[Boss]

[VladimirIlyich]

Is it Channel 4 that screens Big Brother?

Dont think they've got much of a positive reputation for anything after that.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Is it Channel 4 that screens Big Brother?

Dont think they've got much of a positive reputation for anything after that.

Not any more.  They flogged BB to Channel 5.

 

Channel 4 has moved on to Benefits Street and Gogglebox.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Interesting read from the Telegraph.  (I feel a little bit dirty even writing that.)  Although the writer is coming from a different perspective from mine and uses language that just isn't in my vocabulary, he comes to the conclusion I would: the "problem" with British Muslims is more about class than religion.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11409181/Worried-about-Muslims-in-Britain-Heres-the-answer.html

 

Based on BSA data and interviews with hundreds of British Muslims, it found that they were indeed more socially conservative than other Britons on gender roles in the home, divorce, premarital sex, abortion, homosexuality, and same-sex marriage.

But comparing Muslims with other Britons, it concluded that “much of the difference on socio-moral opinions was due to socio-economic disadvantage and high religiosity, both factors which predict social conservatism among all Britons and not just Muslims.”

In other words, Muslims’ moral and social attitudes, the old-fashioned and illiberal attitudes that worry so many people aren’t so very different from those of other poor and badly-educated non-Muslims.

Many commentators and politicians approach integration as a cultural question, arguing that more should be done to persuade British Muslims to accept “British values”. Perhaps we’d be better off taking an economic perspective, accepting that a better aim is making them better off.

Worried about the rising number of Muslim children in our schools? Then you should hope they pass their exams, go to good universities and get well-paid jobs. Especially the girls. Really, turn more Muslims into fully paid-up members of the Waitrose-shopping, Audi-driving, Boden-wearing middle-classes and their values will take care of themselves.

[VladimirIlyich]

Interesting read from the Telegraph. (I feel a little bit dirty even writing that.) Although the writer is coming from a different perspective from mine and uses language that just isn't in my vocabulary, he comes to the conclusion I would: the "problem" with British Muslims is more about class than religion.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11409181/Worried-about-Muslims-in-Britain-Heres-the-answer.html

Based on BSA data and interviews with hundreds of British Muslims, it found that they were indeed more socially conservative than other Britons on gender roles in the home, divorce, premarital sex, abortion, homosexuality, and same-sex marriage.

But comparing Muslims with other Britons, it concluded that “much of the difference on socio-moral opinions was due to socio-economic disadvantage and high religiosity, both factors which predict social conservatism among all Britons and not just Muslims.”

In other words, Muslims’ moral and social attitudes, the old-fashioned and illiberal attitudes that worry so many people aren’t so very different from those of other poor and badly-educated non-Muslims.

Many commentators and politicians approach integration as a cultural question, arguing that more should be done to persuade British Muslims to accept “British values”. Perhaps we’d be better off taking an economic perspective, accepting that a better aim is making them better off.

Worried about the rising number of Muslim children in our schools? Then you should hope they pass their exams, go to good universities and get well-paid jobs. Especially the girls. Really, turn more Muslims into fully paid-up members of the Waitrose-shopping, Audi-driving, Boden-wearing middle-classes and their values will take care of themselves.

What the fuck is Boden? Sounds like a make of HGV.

[stringvest]

Interesting read from the Telegraph.  (I feel a little bit dirty even writing that.)  Although the writer is coming from a different perspective from mine and uses language that just isn't in my vocabulary, he comes to the conclusion I would: the "problem" with British Muslims is more about class than religion.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11409181/Worried-about-Muslims-in-Britain-Heres-the-answer.html

 

Based on BSA data and interviews with hundreds of British Muslims, it found that they were indeed more socially conservative than other Britons on gender roles in the home, divorce, premarital sex, abortion, homosexuality, and same-sex marriage.

But comparing Muslims with other Britons, it concluded that “much of the difference on socio-moral opinions was due to socio-economic disadvantage and high religiosity, both factors which predict social conservatism among all Britons and not just Muslims.”

In other words, Muslims’ moral and social attitudes, the old-fashioned and illiberal attitudes that worry so many people aren’t so very different from those of other poor and badly-educated non-Muslims.

Many commentators and politicians approach integration as a cultural question, arguing that more should be done to persuade British Muslims to accept “British values”. Perhaps we’d be better off taking an economic perspective, accepting that a better aim is making them better off.

Worried about the rising number of Muslim children in our schools? Then you should hope they pass their exams, go to good universities and get well-paid jobs. Especially the girls. Really, turn more Muslims into fully paid-up members of the Waitrose-shopping, Audi-driving, Boden-wearing middle-classes and their values will take care of themselves.

 

I suspect that may be underestimating the cultural and religious drivers behind Islam.  'High religiosity' has never had the same intensity in these parts; probably the closest examples would be the Irish Catholics in the first three quarters of the last century.   Nor was 'piousness' so difficult to erode or modify.  But again, a lot of that is not only historically cultural, but it is the basis for a support framework on which immigrants depend when they arrive at a new country, so the reluctance to untie from some of the more questionable doctrines is perhaps more understandable.  

[Rico1304]

Long article about ISIS.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[Rico1304]

[Section_31]

"Tens of thousands"?

 

I think people become confused because the lazy bastard media have been given open season to report on the Islamic bad guys rather than talk about shit like private contractors in Iraq mowing down old women for a laugh.

[Rico1304]

Tens of thousands of fellow Muslims, Boko Haram must be nearly there on their own, Sunni v Shia?

[General Dryness]

Long article about ISIS.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

What Isis really wants.

 

Is it a zig a zig ahhh?

[Jairzinho]

Rico still not quite getting the thread. We get it, you don't like Muslims. 

[Anubis]

I think Rico secretly wants to convert to Islam and is trying to fight those feelings using the posts on this thread. Don't give in Rico. I don't want to come and have to rescue you from Syria and de-pde-program you.

[Rico1304]

Rico still not quite getting the thread. We get it, you don't like Muslims.

 

You not quite getting what I'm saying either.

[longballs]

 

 

 

Ali Rizvi is an interesting guy, he was recently on the Joe Rogan podcast.   He was quite critical of Reza Aslan who has probably been mentioned in this thread for his take down of CNN

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

[Rico1304]

Those Joe Rogan podcasts are interesting - and fucking long. The Gad Staad one is fascinating.

[VladimirIlyich]

I'm quite surprised that such a fanatical religion with almost a billion members hasnt taken over the world yet.

Keep an eye on those haversack sales figures.