Middle East Thread

[Jairzinho]

That repulsive, hateful, Tory cunt, Philip Hammond doesn't represent "our country, our values, and everything the British people stand for" either.

[Rico1304]

Interesting podcast this week by Godless Spellchecker, Sam Harris gives his views on ISIS and Islam.

[Anubis]

Absolutely, because Islam is a religion of peace.  And we all know that is 100% accurate.  Don't we.

 

And the Koran is in no way ambiguous about what to do to "the infidels".

 

Unlike the Bible, which is full of rainbows, stardust, puppies, kittens and tea-parties with cute talking rabbits.

[Anubis]

Interesting podcast this week by Godless Spellchecker, Sam Harris gives his views on ISIS and Islam.

 

No link? You lazy get.

[Coro]

Sam Harris: "We should profile Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim"

 

Think I'll give it a miss.

[Rico1304]

Unlike the Bible, which is full of rainbows, stardust, puppies, kittens and tea-parties with cute talking rabbits.

It's a hateful book, as we all know. But none of the mainstream sects take it literally anymore. Only handfuls do, and you don't see many blowing themselves up.

[Anubis]

It's a hateful book, as we all know. But none of the mainstream sects take it literally anymore. Only handfuls do, and you don't see many blowing themselves up.

 

Abortion clinics, but not themselves. Plenty of examples of Christian terrorism if you look for it. But Christians don't need to blow themselves up. All you have to do is fund the Republican Party and get the US Army to blow things up for you.

[Rico1304]

I don't deny that there are a few handfuls of nutters, but nothing on that scale.

[Anubis]

I don't deny that there are a few handfuls of nutters, but nothing on that scale.

 

Oh there are absolutely loads of Christian nut jobs. They just don't need to strap bombs to themselves to achieve their aims. Islamic extremists do it because they don't have the altrnative tools their Christian counterparts do. Look at ISIS - now they've established an army with conventional weapons you don't see them lining up to wear semtex vests.

[Rico1304]

Oh there are absolutely loads of Christian nut jobs. They just don't need to strap bombs to themselves to achieve their aims. Islamic extremists do it because they don't have the altrnative tools their Christian counterparts do. Look at ISIS - now they've established an army with conventional weapons you don't see them lining up to wear semtex vests.

No, they are burying people alive, chopping their heads off and starving them to death.

[Coro]

The Problem Isn’t Islam … It’s ALL Religious Fundamentalism http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/danger-religious-fundamentalists-just-muslisms.html While the Koran Calls for Violence, The Bible Is Even Worse … Calling for Genocide

Christians and Jews rightly point out that the Koran is a violent text which calls on Muslims to attack “unbelievers”.

But they fail to see that the Bible is at least as violent.

NPR noted in 2010:

Religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.

“Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually

far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible

,” Jenkins says.

Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published

Jesus Wars

, and

Dark Passages

, which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack

.

“By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane,” he says. “Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is

a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide

.”

It is called

herem,

and it means

total annihilation

. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: “And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them,” God says through the prophet Samuel. “But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”

When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.

“In other words,” Jenkins says, “

Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history

.

It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God’s law if you do not.”

Jenkins notes that the

history of Christianity is strewn with

herem

.

During the

Crusades

in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great

religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries

, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed.

***

El-Ansary, who teaches Islamic studies at the University of South Carolina, says the Quran explicitly condemns religious aggression and the killing of civilians. And it makes the distinction between jihad — legal warfare with the proper rules of engagement — and

irjaf

, or terrorism.

“All of those types of incidences — [sept. 11], Maj. Nidal Hasan and so forth — those are all examples of

irjaf

, not jihad,” he says. According to the Quran, he says, those who practice

irjaf

“are going to hell.”

***

In the end, the scholars can agree on one thing: The DNA of early Judaism, Christianity and Islam code for a lot of violence. Whether they can evolve out of it is another thing altogether.

Indeed, the Nazis, the Norwegian mass murderer and many others have committed terrorism in the name of Christianity.   Adolph Hitler professed to be a Christian, and churches in Nazi Germany mainly supported the Nazis.

There are peaceful, contemplative Muslim sects – think the poet Rumi and the whirling Sufis – and violent sects, just as there are contemplative Christian orders and violent Christian sects.

In the Old Testament, the Jews were always smiting one tribe or another into oblivion.  Some Jews still commit terrorism. For example, Israel admits that an Israeli terrorist cell operating in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including U.S. diplomatic facilities, then left behind “evidence” implicating the Arabs as the culprits (one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to identify the bombers, and several of the Israelis later confessed) (and see this and this).

A prominent Jewish leader said that Jews used terror during the formation of Israel.  And some still call for genocide against the other guy. And see this.

Indeed, even fundamentalist Hindus and Buddhists murder “non-believers”.

As NPR notes, murder of outsiders is called for in both the Koran and the Bible.  So the question isn’t whether you’re on one “team” or the other … it’s whether you’re mature enough to evolve past the violent thousands-year-old worldview and act peacefully.

Most Muslims condemn Islamic terrorism, just as most Christians condemn terrorism by fundamentalist Christians and most Jews condemn terrorism by fundamentalist Jews.

As Christian writer and psychiatrist M. Scott Peck – who served as the United States Army’s Assistant Chief Psychiatry and Neurology Consultant to the Surgeon General of the Army, and held the rank of Lieutenant Colonel – explained, there are different stages of spiritual maturity.  Fundamentalism – whether it be Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Hindu fundamentalism – is an immature stage of development.

Indeed, a Christian fundamentalist who kills others in the name of religion is much more similar to a Muslim – or Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist – fundamentalist who kills others in the name of his religion than to a Christian who peacefully fights for justice and truth, helps the poor, or serves to bring hope to the downtrodden.

Postscript: Sadly, the U.S. and our allies are making matters worse by backing the most barbaric, crazed, fundamentalist Muslims … and overthrowing the moderate Arabs.

[Funkasy]

Anders Breivik never did it in the name of christianity tho. He was anti muslim and he suggested other religions to drive them out of their country to.

[bouncebrigade]

"That's nearly as mad as that thing you told me about the loaves and the fishes."

 

Father Dougal Maguire

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

No, they are burying people alive, chopping their heads off and starving them to death.

Are they beating people to death and shooting unarmed people in the chest?

 

Like the Baha Mousa/Marine A cases?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Or the Nigerian soldiers who systematically rounded up and beheaded Muslim youths, without trial etc, on the suspicion that they were Boko Haram. Using "evidence" such as that they had "suspicious faces", bruises in their arms which apparently meant they'd been involved in combat or because they'd denied too strongly being in Boko Haram.

 

And starving to death. Like those lovely Jewish blokes do?

 

Rico, only offended by behaviour if it's perpetrated by a muzzie!

[Funkasy]

in 20 to 50 years every european country will have more muslims youth then other religions, at that time we can bump this thread again and see whats going on and how the world has progressed. i cant imagine a better europe, but i can see that many support it here. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

in 20 to 50 years every european country will have more muslims youth then other religions, at that time we can bump this thread again and see whats going on and how the world has progressed. i cant imagine a better europe, but i can see that many support it here.

Any evidence for this claim?

[Rico1304]

Are they beating people to death and shooting unarmed people in the chest?

Like the Baha Mousa/Marine A cases?

What are you talking about? I'm talking about millions upon millions of people who believe an ancient book gives them the right to murder.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

What are you talking about? I'm talking about millions upon millions of people who believe an ancient book gives them the right to murder.

Millions? Have you asked them all? Divvy.

[Rico1304]

Millions? Have you asked them all? Divvy.

yes, I'm the divvy because I haven't asked them all.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

No, you're the divvy because you're making sweeping, bellend like statements without any evidence at all.

 

Bellend.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Millions and millions of Christians hate gays and want to murder them.

[Rico1304]

Millions and millions of Christians hate gays and want to murder them.

Probably true, now, point me to where this actually happened. On a huge scale, like it's happening now.

[Rico1304]

And for the record I think the Christians are as daft as the Muslims, Hindus etc. it's just that Muslims tend to be a bit more blowy-uppy.

[Funkasy]

Any evidence for this claim?

Between 2001 and 2009 the Muslim population increased almost 10 times faster than the non-Muslim population in UK. (thats from wikipedia) other nations such as france, holland and germany are growing faster. Now you do the math for the next years, Its not slowing down, and muslim families have about 5-10 kids while other have 1-2. 

 

Take your blinkers of, just deal with the numbers and everyday observations and then ask yourself if this is what you want to become of europe or the world for that sake. 

 

Will the none believers be welcome in europe at that time?