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Red Phoenix

Middle East Thread

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Owen Jones slamming both Saudi and Israeli killings and rightly pointing at the government supply of arms to these egregious nations. From the front page of the Guardian.

 

Source: Guardian

 

Will not even the massacre of children in Yemen end the silence over the murderous complicity of the British government? They were little kids on a bus on the way back from a picnic, no doubt laughing and raucous as large groups of children tend to be, and then they were burned to death. At least 29 children were among the 43 slaughtered, an atrocity perpetrated by the aircraft of Saudi Arabia and its Gulf allies.

 

Consider Britain’s role. According to the Campaign Against Arms Trade, our government has supplied the grotesque Saudi dictatorship with £4.7bn worth of arms since the war in Yemen began. Aircraft, helicopters, drones, bombs, missiles: all supplied by UK plc to be quite possibly dropped on the heads of children laughing on the way back from a picnic. Just months ago, the British government feted the Saudi dictator Mohammed bin Salman: unveiling a joint £100m aid deal, granting this tyranny humanitarian PR, while BAE Systems announced the sale of another 48 Typhoon jets. It gets worse: British military personnel are directly involved in helping the Saudi war effort – to what extent remains intentionally murky.

 

Thousands have died, mostly at the hands of the Saudi-led forces we are arming; millions have been displaced; and the country has been left on the verge of famine. Yet where is the national outrage? Where is the wall-to-wall news coverage about these horrors committed in our name? The unforgivable failure of the media to hold the British government to account has left most of the population unaware that this war is even happening. If the culpable nation were deemed a western enemy – such as Iran – there would have been calls for US-led military intervention to stop the slaughter long ago. But it’s our good friends and allies, the head-chopping extremism-exporting Saudi dictatorship, and so both the silence and the killing continues.

 

Consider another horror unfolding with direct western involvement. On Wednesday night a pregnant woman and her 18-month-old daughter were killed in Gaza by an Israeli airstrike. It is being framed as a conflict between Hamas and Israel, as though an equivalence can be drawn between an open-air prison camp and a regional military superpower. Every death – Palestinian or Israeli – is a tragedy, every attack on a civilian by either Hamas or Israel indefensible. Yet, the human rights NGO B’Tselem reports, 9,456 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli security forces – with western complicity – in the past 18 years, compared with 1,237 Israeli security force personnel and civilians killed by Palestinians. Of the Palestinian fatalities, 2,025 were children. Other estimates put the Palestinian death toll over the same period at up to 9,730. It is perverse to suggest this “conflict” is anything other than overwhelmingly one-sided. And yet as the slaughter continues, British arms sales to Israel are at a record high.

 

Both Saudi Arabia and Israel think they can get away with killing innocents, including children, for a very simple reason: they absolutely can. They enjoy the military and diplomatic support of the west. Occasionally there may be utterances of regret, which are quickly forgotten. But as long as Britain and its allies are complicit – and as long as our media fail in their duty to inform the public of what is happening in their name – these horrors will only continue.

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I can clearly distinguish between a murdering, racist, apartheid regime, and a people who's sole purpose in life is just to survive on a day to day basis.

 

I certainly will be going to my grave knowing I never supported murdering, apartheid regimes. Some people will of course, and that indeed is their own (brainwashed) choice. Peace.

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Yeah, I'm not interested in whether you side with a democracy or a theocracy in any particular land dispute, so goodness knows what you think you read. I'm just addressing Owen's logical fallacy that killing most people automatically makes you the bad guy. It's poor logic.

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Yeah, I'm not interested in whether you side with a democracy or a theocracy in any particular land dispute, so goodness knows what you think you read. I'm just addressing Owen's logical fallacy that killing most people automatically makes you the bad guy. It's poor logic.

He didn’t say that, although they clearly are very bad guys. Your bizarre attempt to frame it as democracy = good guys is bizarre. A similar fallacy.

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At the very least, he implied it, by contrasting the number killed by one side with the number killed by the other. What relevance does it have to anything?

 

I wouldn't ever say something as simple as "democracy = good guys", but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking democracy superior to theocracy in general terms.

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At the very least, he implied it, by contrasting the number killed by one side with the number killed by the other. What relevance does it have to anything?

It's said in the context of what the support we give does. He's putting the disparity down to western support of killing.

 

I wouldn't ever say something as simple as "democracy = good guys", but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking democracy superior to theocracy in general terms.

I think your use of it is pretty grim and one of the reasons I said what I said about sounding like an apologist and propagandist. Ask yourself why you don't frame the Iraq war like that, but rather 'the illegal war and torture party'. It isnt about which system is better. You want to talk about implementation above, what's implied from your comments is significantly worse, in my opinion.

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As a general rule, I don't want to see a nation that subjects its own people to theocratic brutality make territorial gains from a nation that permits its citizens Western-standard human rights, so it's absolutely difficult for me to suspend that thinking in this particular context.

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We happen to have an economic Theocracy in the West today. "The Invisible Hand Of The Market".

The High Priests of the Central banking system, rule us all. Time we ditched it. Even Politicians have to bow down to Reserve Bank Head Honchos, meaning that no political party, even if it has the will, can effect real change.

I'd also argue that any government accepting this economic Theocracy, and allowing poverty and mental health issues within it's borders, has blood on it's hands.

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A BBC Syria producer claimed that he could prove without a doubt that the Douma hospital scene was staged. His twitter account was set to private shortly after and has stayed that way since.

 

 

This goes into the subject in quite a bit of detail too (have to scroll past video to read) What Happened in Douma? Searching for Facts in the Fog of Syria’s Propaganda War

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On 4/14/2018 at 9:37 AM, Trumo said:

It's almost as if Crooked Hillary is in charge, ain't that right RP and Donny?

Would've agreed if I was around here when this happened I think, I don't remember even being aware of the bombing related to Douma last year though. I did a pretty good job of just fucking the news off almost completely for quite a while, was probably playing Elder Scrolls Online as it was happening.

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While Red Phoenix was getting his knickers in a twist about an Israeli defensive action that killed precisely nobody, his Russian mates were killing yet more civilians in Syria. I'm sure he just forgot to mention it

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/15/russia-restarts-bombing-campaign-rebel-held-syrian-city-idlib/

 

Quote

Russia restarts bombing campaign over rebel-held Syrian city of Idlib

Russian jets have bombed the last-remaining Syrian rebel stronghold, threatening a ceasefire reached to prevent a humanitarian disaster.

The raids on Wednesday, which killed at least 13 civilians including six infants, were the first on Idlib since Russia agreed to a de-escalation zone with Turkey in September.

The strikes targeted a displacement camp, as well as a prison - sparking a jail break by dozens of inmates. Footage of the incidents showed a father cradling his dead son in a hospital, while a man looks dazed with severe wounds to his arm.

Idlib, which is now home to almost four million people, has become the final refuge of those opposed to President Bashar al-Assad’s regime.

Mr Assad has said he will not stop until he regains every inch of Syria, but the international community has warned a military offensive in Idlib could send millions fleeing towards the nearby border of Turkey.

The province is largely controlled by Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), a group led by Syria's former al-Qaeda affiliate. After rebel infighting last year, the Islamist group gained control of the majority of the northern province.

Turkey, which supports the rebels, persuaded Russia, which is backing the government, to hold off from a full-scale attack in return for disentangling HTS from the general population, but has so far failed to do so.

“There is no solution against the Russian occupier, Assad’s forces and the Iranian militias except confrontation and confrontation only,” HTS said in a statement in response.

"A large-scale military assault on Idlib would create the worst humanitarian catastrophe the world has seen in the 21st Century," Mark Lowcock, UN humanitarian chief, said on Thursday at a three-day pledging conference in Brussels.

Senior representatives from scores of countries and international organisations have gathered this week in the Belgium capital in a fresh effort to drum up aid for Syria amid growing donor fatigue as the conflict enters its ninth year.

UN agencies, non-governmental organisations, and think tanks are warning that the conflict, which has killed more than 500,000 people and sparked a refugee exodus that destabilised Syria's neighbors and also hit Europe, is far from over.

Nearly four million are living outside of Syria, mostly in neighbouring Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan, with many reluctant to return, fearing violence, conscription or prison. Around 80 per cent of people inside the country live in extreme poverty.

"Syria remains one of the great crises of our time," Mr Lowcock added. The UN has launched an appeal for £3bn for inside Syria, and £4bn is for refugees and host communities in neighbouring countries.

The European Union, the world's biggest aid donor, announced that it would provide 560 million euros (£477million) this year, while planning to offer the same amount next year and in 2021.

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3 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

While Red Phoenix was getting his knickers in a twist about an Israeli defensive action that killed precisely nobody, his Russian mates were killing yet more civilians in Syria. I'm sure he just forgot to mention it

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/15/russia-restarts-bombing-campaign-rebel-held-syrian-city-idlib/

 

 

Russian mates, haha. I don't like Putin or Assad and I don't support any government using planes for bombing campaigns. (You won't find any post of mine where I've ever supported any type of bombing as far as I remember.) And I agree that it's sickening that civilians are dying in Idlib. I'm mainly focusing on Israel/Palestine for more reasons than I even remember right now and it'd take ages to list them all, but despite what you might think it's not because I hate the Jews or think Israel should be focused on while everything else is ignored. I'm glad that people are reporting on what's happening in Idlib as well but I don't pretend to know how that mess is going to be solved.

 

I find it fucking unreal that Israel struck 100 or so targets and didn't manage to kill anyone either. Especially after seeing so many images of the bombs going off last night. It doesn't make it acceptable that two rockets that didn't damage any property or injure anyone should be returned with 100 targets being hit by Israel's military though, and that's along with finding out that the Israeli army thought that the rockets were set off by mistake during maintenance work in the first place (from here).

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