Game of Thrones

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

It's boss, even the last series, while inferior to what went before, is better than 99% of telly. The night king battle is unreal, you end up watching it and just shaking your head, especially the bit where the Dothraki charge and their swords all blink out one by one.. 

 

It's got great rewatch value too because it's so complex and there's so much going on, you forget lots of it.

The only thing that lets down the last series is the sheer determination of the writers and directors to absolutely go against everything that had gone before, like somehow it would be cool and inventive to give hints of what is likely to happen and just deliberately change it to surprise the viewer. 

 

The Dothraki scene - as spectacular as it is - the most impressive, powerful, guerilla style army just goes charging into complete darkness? Hard to believe they would sacrifice themselves like that, even less so see it being of strategic benefit by the commanding officers. 

 

Game of thrones waves it's virtual cock at pretty much every show made before it but then slipped on a condom that was two sizes too big. 

[sir roger]

I know one of the main criticisms was that Danaerys wouldnt act like she did in the last series, but having watched the earlier episodes she definitely had plenty of previous.

[Section_31]

54 minutes ago, Fluter in Dakota said:

The Dothraki scene - as spectacular as it is - the most impressive, powerful, guerilla style army just goes charging into complete darkness? Hard to believe they would sacrifice themselves like that, even less so see it being of strategic benefit by the commanding officers. 

 

It's funny, I think things like that when I'm watching it, such as how unrealistic it would be for the unsullied to only have spears and no close range weapons like a roman gladius, but give me dragons, faceless men and an immortal night king who can raise an army of the dead and I don't bat an eyelid.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I know one of the main criticisms was that Danaerys wouldnt act like she did in the last series, but having watched the earlier episodes she definitely had plenty of previous.

I could buy how she acted, especially as she had so many people betray her. She hardly seemed concerned when her brother was tangoed with hot gold.

 

My personal biggest gripe was virtually the entire show was built up to a stand off with the dead army. They appeared in the first episode and were a constant source of menace to every living person who even slightly believed in them and they were essentially wiped out by a single girl.

[JagSquared]

41 minutes ago, Fluter in Dakota said:

I could buy how she acted, especially as she had so many people betray her. She hardly seemed concerned when her brother was tangoed with hot gold.

 

My personal biggest gripe was virtually the entire show was built up to a stand off with the dead army. They appeared in the first episode and were a constant source of menace to every living person who even slightly believed in them and they were essentially wiped out by a single girl.

Yep it was absolutely shite, the build up to the walkers was immense, a real sense of dread though-out the series and not one of the main characters died during the main fight with them, the tactics made zero sense, they were all safe and you knew it.
 

The show lost its edge and clearly didn’t want to kill any favourites When that was what it was good at - subverting expectations. They (walkers) were defeated so easily it was like someone found a cheat code. The fact it was Arya pissed me off too as they built up all the prince that was promised stuff. 
 

I could have bought Dany turning evil as you say there were plenty of hints but I was so fucked off at that point with what happened with the walkers and the fact the last season was so rushed and so on the nose with everything it had just lost everything that was good about it. The slow build up, subtlety and the whole treating the audience with intelligence. 

 

I just couldn’t buy anything else. The walkers ending broke my interest, the rest just annoyed me.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

It's funny, I think things like that when I'm watching it, such as how unrealistic it would be for the unsullied to only have spears and no close range weapons like a roman gladius, but give me dragons, faceless men and an immortal night king who can raise an army of the dead and I don't bat an eyelid.

Yeh, the first five or six seasons the writing, direction and constant references to previous and future events were a joy to take in. The attention to detail was of the highest level. So much time was spent on each season bringing the characters and their stories to life. If I recall, most of the early seasons were 20 episodes long, so 20 hours is plenty of time to breathe life into the stories. The last season just kind of took a lot of those principles and shoved them down the back of the sofa and crammed as many of the stories into the last 10 episodes as they could. Attention to detail took a back seat to just getting this on the screen however we can.

 

It's an incredible show, it just drops off where it matters most but it's still amongst the best stories ever told in a TV show.

[JagSquared]

33 minutes ago, Fluter in Dakota said:

Yeh, the first five or six seasons the writing, direction and constant references to previous and future events were a joy to take in. The attention to detail was of the highest level. So much time was spent on each season bringing the characters and their stories to life. If I recall, most of the early seasons were 20 episodes long, so 20 hours is plenty of time to breathe life into the stories. The last season just kind of took a lot of those principles and shoved them down the back of the sofa and crammed as many of the stories into the last 10 episodes as they could. Attention to detail took a back seat to just getting this on the screen however we can.

 

It's an incredible show, it just drops off where it matters most but it's still amongst the best stories ever told in a TV show.

It just felt like the earlier series had more episodes they actually had 10 each for the first 6 series and then 7 for series 7 and 6 for series 8. 
 

annoyingly the last season had some longer episodes too, they just tried to cram in too much when they should have kept pace and done full series of 10

episodes for 7 and 8 and maybe a series 9 to allow all the threads the time they deserved. But the show runners were busy trying to get onto Star Wars from which they ended up being dropped from.

[Section_31]

King Robert is boss. "I bet you smell of blackberry jam, phwoar come ere!"

[Remmie]

On 31/08/2020 at 19:51, Fluter in Dakota said:

I could buy how she acted, especially as she had so many people betray her. She hardly seemed concerned when her brother was tangoed with hot gold.

 

My personal biggest gripe was virtually the entire show was built up to a stand off with the dead army. They appeared in the first episode and were a constant source of menace to every living person who even slightly believed in them and they were essentially wiped out by a single girl.

Repped for tangoed with hot gold. 

 

I was glad they fucked off the white wanker storyline, I just had no interest in motiveless simple baddies, they reminded me of those puddies in power rangers, just fodder for our heroes to slay. The true crescendo was always about the fight for the throne even if that did also ultimately disappoint. 

 

[Remmie]

1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

King Robert is boss. "I bet you smell of blackberry jam, phwoar come ere!"

Yeah he was brilliant, kinging like a boss

[Moo]

On 31/08/2020 at 20:42, JagSquared said:

Yep it was absolutely shite, the build up to the walkers was immense, a real sense of dread though-out the series and not one of the main characters died during the main fight with them, the tactics made zero sense, they were all safe and you knew it.
 

The show lost its edge and clearly didn’t want to kill any favourites When that was what it was good at - subverting expectations. They (walkers) were defeated so easily it was like someone found a cheat code. The fact it was Arya pissed me off too as they built up all the prince that was promised stuff. 
 

The prince that was promised, didn't that actually turn out to be Arya?

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Moo said:

The prince that was promised, didn't that actually turn out to be Arya?

I never actually noticed this as part of the story. When I watch it again I will definitely pay attention for it.

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_prince_that_was_promised

The prince that was promised

The prince that was promised is a prophesied leader or savior. The prince may be part of an ancient prophecy which foretells the coming of a hero to deliver the world from darkness. A "bleeding star" is supposed to herald the coming of the prince.^[1] The prince is said to have "a song", the song of ice and fire.^[2]

Contents

• 1 History
• 2 Recent Events
  • 2.1 A Clash of Kings
  • 2.2 A Storm of Swords
  • 2.3 A Feast for Crows
  • 2.4 A Dance with Dragons
• 3 Quotes
• 4 References

History

In his youth, Prince Rhaegar Targaryen thought he might be the prince that was promised - by Silvenger ©

Main article: the prince that was promised/Theories

It is not known from where the prophecy originates, as information on the prince that was promised is scant. According to Melisandre, a red priestess of R'hllor, the prince was prophesied five thousand years ago.^[3] She has mentioned the prince that was promised^[4] and Azor Ahai interchangeably but tends to use the name Azor Ahai far more often. Melisandre states that "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."^[5]

 

Maester Aemon mentions a bleeding star, along with smoke and salt, as being part of the heralding of the prince that was promised coming,^[1] but he does not mention Azor Ahai. Archmaester Marwyn recalls that according to the prophecy, the prince would be "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star."^[6] When he was younger Aemon thought that Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was the prince who was promised, since the smoke would be from the fire at Summerhall and salt from the tears of those who cried there.^[1]

 

Young Rhaegar agreed with Aemon that he might be the prince that was promised. According to Arstan Whitebeard, one day Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him and he decided to become a knight, telling Ser Willem Darry, "I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior."^[7]

 

Rhaegar later believed that his infant son, Aegon, was the promised prince, since a comet was seen above King's Landing when the boy was born.^[1] Rhaegar was killed by Lord Robert Baratheon in the Battle of the Trident,^[8] however, and Aegon was killed by Ser Gregor Clegane in the Sack of King's Landing.^[9]

 

When he was a boy, the future King Aegon V Targaryen recalled that King Aerys I once read about the return of dragons in a prophecy.^[10] Maester Aemon believes that "the dragon must have three heads,"^[1] although it is unknown if that is connected with the prince that was promised.

Recent Events

A Clash of Kings

Daenerys Targaryen's eldest brother, the late Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, appears in one of her visions in the House of the Undying in Qarth. She sees him talking to his wife, Elia Martell, discussing what he shall name his son (Aegon) and his destiny. He states, "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."^[2]

 

When at the port of Qarth with Ser Jorah Mormont, Daenerys mentions her brother said that the babe was the prince that was promised. Jorah observes that if Aegon was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall during the Sack of King's Landing. Daenerys seems to accept this notion and asks about the song of ice and fire, but Jorah has never heard it.^[11]

A Storm of Swords

On Dragonstone Melisandre explains that Stannis Baratheon is the prince that was promised,^[12] and that the red comet is his herald.^[3]At the Wall Melisandre commands the Night's Watch to light nightfires to protect against the dark and she speaks of the war for the dawn. When Maester Aemon asks about the prince that was promised, Melisandre states that Stannis is Azor Ahai.^[13]

A Feast for Crows

Daenerys the Unburnt by Michael Komarck ©

In Braavos, Samwell Tarly tells Aemon of the rumors about Daenerys and her dragons. The maester becomes convinced that Daenerys is the prophesied leader. Remembering Septon Barth's conclusion that dragons are of no mixed gender, Aemon determines there was an error in the prophecy's translation. He tells Sam that the hero is not a prince but a princess, Daenerys.^[1]

 

Aemon intends to find Daenerys, but he dies en route to Oldtown, however.^[1] Archmaester Marwyn announces his intention to travel to her at Slaver's Bay instead.^[6]

A Dance with Dragons

In Meereen Ser Barristan Selmy talks to Daenerys about her mother, Rhaella, and father, King Aerys II. He mentions that her grandsire, King Jaehaerys II, commanded that they be wed after a woods witch had foretold that the prince who was promised would be born of their line. When Daenerys asks about the woods witch, Barristan mentions Summerhall and is then asked to leave by his weary queen.^[14]

 

On the Wall a doubting Jon Snow reminds Melisandre that she has spoken of "a promised prince, born of smoke and salt", and that it seems to him that she makes nothing but mistakes.^[15]

 

When Benerro preaches in Volantis that the dark eye has fallen upon Daenerys, Tyrion Lannister recalls an ancient prophecy of a hero who will save the world from darkness.^[16]

Quotes

Davos: A hill in a forest ... shapes in the snow ... I don't ...
Melisandre: It means that the battle is begun. The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor.^[12]

—Davos Seaworth and Melisandre

She talks of prophecies ... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone ... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?^[4]

—Stannis Baratheon, to Davos Seaworth

You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.^[3]

—Melisandre, to Stannis Baratheon

Melisandre: Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.

Aemon: It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?

Melisandre: He stands before you, though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.^[13]

—Melisandre and Aemon

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.^[1]

—Aemon, to Samwell Tarly

Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy … her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall.^[6]

—Samwell Tarly, to Marwyn

Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy. Not that I would trust it.^[6]

—Marwyn, to Samwell Tarly

Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.^[17]

—Tyrion Lannister, to Jorah Mormont

[JagSquared]

1 hour ago, Remmie said:

Repped for tangoed with hot gold. 

 

I was glad they fucked off the white wanker storyline, I just had no interest in motiveless simple baddies, they reminded me of those puddies in power rangers, just fodder for our heroes to slay. The true crescendo was always about the fight for the throne even if that did also ultimately disappoint. 

 

It’s because the show runners and perhaps GRRM shit out of really delving into their past and explaining their motivations.
 

when they showed their creation by the children of the forest I felt there could have been so much more to make them bigger than a generic unrelenting monster. Why else have a “king” and why ceremonially lay out their victims in that spiral pattern there was a lot of complexity to be had. 

[Section_31]

It really does stand up brilliantly on second viewing because it's so complex, I'd missed a lot of it. Hadn't realised Ned Stark's older brother had been killed by the mad King and Ned had never been raised to be Lord of winterfell. 

 

 

Also, that John Aaron's squire was made a knight, probably for betraying him, then was promptly set up in a joust with the mountain to finish him off.

 

Can't think of many characters on TV who've had an arc like Jaime Lannister's either. Amazing telly.

[JagSquared]

3 hours ago, Moo said:

The prince that was promised, didn't that actually turn out to be Arya?

Yep but they hadn't really hinted at her at all (I may be confusing it with the books though).
 

All the talk of Azor Ahai and the prince that was promised pointed at Jon or Dany, the red priestess seeing Snow in her visions leading her to think of Jon Snow as TPTWP was / AA was the main one. all that build up and Arya comes out of nowhere and turns out to be TPTWP and stabs the Night King then she just decides to fuck off west for no reason despite never mentioning it before.

 

ive seen a few alternate endings and I quite like this one.

 

 

it was a really great show with complex characters and a great back story but they rushed it and ended up with a mess the first few seasons are simply superb TV.

[Section_31]

amazed they haven't done a spin off yet. Something set in old valeria would be ace. Apparently they shot a pilot set thousands of years earlier with John Simm and with Jonathan Ross's wife as showrunner but it was shitcanned.

 

[KMD7]

5 hours ago, Section_31 said:

King Robert is boss. "I bet you smell of blackberry jam, phwoar come ere!"

Pity he only had 1 season. Great character.

[KMD7]

42 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

Yep but they hadn't really hinted at her at all (I may be confusing it with the books though).
 

All the talk of Azor Ahai and the prince that was promised pointed at Jon or Dany, the red priestess seeing Snow in her visions leading her to think of Jon Snow as TPTWP was / AA was the main one. all that build up and Arya comes out of nowhere and turns out to be TPTWP and stabs the Night King then she just decides to fuck off west for no reason despite never mentioning it before.

 

ive seen a few alternate endings and I quite like this one.

 

 

it was a really great show with complex characters and a great back story but they rushed it and ended up with a mess the first few seasons are simply superb TV.

The show hinted at it in season 7 when Missandei said the phrase The Prince who is promised can also mean The Prince or Princess who was promised as the word Prince has no gender in High Valyrian

[Kevin D]

On 31/08/2020 at 19:49, Section_31 said:

 

It's funny, I think things like that when I'm watching it, such as how unrealistic it would be for the unsullied to only have spears and no close range weapons like a roman gladius, but give me dragons, faceless men and an immortal night king who can raise an army of the dead and I don't bat an eyelid.

 

I definitely get that.

 

Whenever someone says a bit of The West Wing is schmaltz, manipulative, and sentimental, I always end up agreeing completely agreeing with the criticism, but I just don't care.

 

If you find something captivating, it's captivating.

[JagSquared]

9 hours ago, KMD7 said:

Pity he only had 1 season. Great character.

Yeah I think most assumed that was Dany, but one throwaway line? Tbf I don’t mind her turning out to be AA / TPTWP it was just way too easy in the end for them to defeat the WW with no real cost (as in characters as they all survived).

[Section_31]

Matt Smith in House of the Dragon. Can't wait til Bruce Lee turns up.

 

 

[Elite]

13 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Matt Smith in House of the Dragon. Can't wait til Bruce Lee turns up.

 

 

 

 

 

[JagSquared]

Saw this on Reddit obvs can’t verify it but I can certainly see it being true, they literally will have lost billions due to the reaction to the final season, there were so many products and associated licensing deals,

tie ins and more they prob could have exploited but they have all pretty much disappeared even the new show should be killing it on buzz but it feels a lot more subdued than it should be. 
 

the first 6 seasons were 10/10 TV, from a business point of view it would make a great case study. 

[Mudface]

51 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

Saw this on Reddit obvs can’t verify it but I can certainly see it being true, they literally will have lost billions due to the reaction to the final season, there were so many products and associated licensing deals,

tie ins and more they prob could have exploited but they have all pretty much disappeared even the new show should be killing it on buzz but it feels a lot more subdued than it should be. 
 

the first 6 seasons were 10/10 TV, from a business point of view it would make a great case study. 

Good. I rewatched the entire thing just before S8 came out, even slogged my way through the dross of S6 and 7, but then barely made it halfway through the last series. It really was that bad, and those two pricks running it, then deciding to finish it off quickly so they could do some Star Wars stuff, are completely responsible.

[JagSquared]

1 hour ago, Mudface said:

Good. I rewatched the entire thing just before S8 came out, even slogged my way through the dross of S6 and 7, but then barely made it halfway through the last series. It really was that bad, and those two pricks running it, then deciding to finish it off quickly so they could do some Star Wars stuff, are completely responsible.

I do wonder how much GRRM is to blame too though, he was a consultant and he could / should have stepped in and given them more guidance especially when things started to go awry in season 6 but instead he seemingly let them do what they wanted and tarnished his legacy. I know he gave them a rough outline but surely they could have asked for more or did they believe in their own infallibility at that point and ignore him?

 

GOT should have been this generations Star Wars, they could have had royalties for decades, theme parks, movies, spin offs, merch all selling like hot cakes but instead they have a fraction left over and it’s fallen off the face of the earth. I feel for the lesser actors who did amazing jobs from the outset but who are now best remembered for the terrible last season in particular. Even the supporting industries will have had a potential windfall taken away for example N.I had a booming tourist trade off the back of the show and they were balls deep into the marketing of it. That’s kind of gone away too.
 

id love someone to work out the number of money lost and then also review the reactions of execs, writers, cast, crew etc. I’m sure it would be sanitised but a no holds barred truthful examination would be interesting.