Kiev Kick Offs

[Red Phoenix]

Haha, from the Guardian comments :

 

 

"— David Cameron (@David_Cameron)
March 2, 2014

I spoke to @BarackObama tonight. We agreed Russia's actions are unacceptable & there must be significant costs if they don't change course."

 

Oh no, there's been some technical fault on all gas lines through Ukraine and Belorussia, dear EU, we aim to restore the gas supply as soon as we can… :rolleyes:

 

Let's try this again, engage brain then mouth…

[Stu Monty]

"I spoke to @BarackObama tonight. I had to hold the line whilst he ordered drone bombings in Pakistan that utterly compromise their national sovereignty but once he was done we properly had a whinge about Russia."

[Strontium]

Feel free to educate me here but I thought that Ukraine freely decided it wanted to be politically aligned with Russia and that people holding the minority view (of wanting to be aligned with the EU and US) have deposed the elected government?

The government might have been democratically elected, but that doesn't mean everything they do afterwards is legitimate. Democracy is about much more than getting more votes than the other guy once every five years, and Ukraine was going to sign an agreement which would have made it little more than a vassal of Russia.

 

Obviously this rankled with a lot of people who didn't fancy having their human rights chipped away and losing a golden future as a full partner in a socially progressive free Europe, hence the removal of the despot Yanukovych by popular uprising.

 

How anyone can look at a country where journalists are openly murdered, where corruption is rife and where gays and minorities are persecuted and deduce them to be the good guys is beyond me.

[stringvest]

So you play by the rules until they don't bring about the desired solution. Again. Seriously SD. It's depressing to think that you actually believe what you're spouting on here.

 

[Nightcat]

Strontum dog, are the good guys those who hired murderers and terrorists in Kosovo, Bosnia, Syria, Libya, Egypt, those who supported the illegal Turkish invasion in Cyprus, invaded dozens of countries, overthrown dozens of governments and installed puppet Yesmen?

 

Anyway, I was reading the latest developments on the crisis in Ukraine.

 

Turns out that the highly anticipated economic support by the West to Ukraine, is sending Ukraine to the IMF for a multi-decade loan programme. So, not only they will lose parts of their country to Russia, Ukrainians will be getting fucked in the ass by the IMF for a couple generations.

 

Yes, that's a Catastrophe.

[Stu Monty]

The government might have been democratically elected, but that doesn't mean everything they do afterwards is legitimate. Democracy is about much more than getting more votes than the other guy once every five years, and Ukraine was going to sign an agreement which would have made it little more than a vassal of Russia.

 

Obviously this rankled with a lot of people who didn't fancy having their human rights chipped away and losing a golden future as a full partner in a socially progressive free Europe, hence the removal of the despot Yanukovych by popular uprising.

 

How anyone can look at a country where journalists are openly murdered, where corruption is rife and where gays and minorities are persecuted and deduce them to be the good guys is beyond me.

 

Negged for straw-manning me, again. Tiresome.

 

I never said they were the good guys, because I'm not a fucking child that sees goodies and baddies in complex, self-interest dominated geopolitical moves.

 

You realise that a popular uprising in one city might not represent the wishes of the whole country don't you?

[Strontium]

So you play by the rules until they don't bring about the desired solution. Again. Seriously SD. It's depressing to think that you actually believe what you're spouting on here.

You're not democratically legitimate if, after you're elected, you try to curtail democracy and human rights.

 

Nothing to do with "desired solutions", whatever that's supposed to mean.

[aws]

But the despot was elected, right?

 

Unlike the unpleasant right wing groups who seem to have ended up with most of the cabinet seats in the interim self- appointed Kiev regime.

 

And why do the Western bits of Ukraine have the right to seize control in the name of self- determination while the Eastern bits don't?

[Strontium]

Negged for straw-manning me, again. Tiresome.

 

I never said they were the good guys, because I'm not a fucking child that sees goodies and baddies.

 

You realise that a popular uprising in one city might not represent the wishes of the whole country don't you?

Nobody's straw-manned you, your words are up there for all to see.

 

It's not about seeing "goodies" and "baddies". If you can't see that Russia is way more evil than the EU, then no amount of argument will help.

[Strontium]

But the despot was elected, right?

So was Hitler. What's the point?

 

Unlike the unpleasant right wing groups who seem to have ended up with most of the cabinet seats in the interim self- appointed Kiev regime.

Svoboda has 5 of the 20 seats on the national unity government. 25% isn't "most".

 

Anyway, Svoboda are virulently anti-semitic and anti-Israel, I would have imagined they'd be cheered to the hilt on this forum.

 

And why do the Western bits of Ukraine have the right to seize control in the name of self- determination while the Eastern bits don't?

Everyone should have the right to self-determination. I don't really follow.

[Stu Monty]

Nobody's straw-manned you, your words are up there for all to see.

 

It's not about seeing "goodies" and "baddies". If you can't see that Russia is way more evil than the EU, then no amount of argument will help.

 

Show me where I called Russia the good guys. It's always the same with you now, blatant dishonesty or avoidance of a point in order to win what you seem to think is some massive debate tournament.

 

You avoided the question posed to you. Are you aware that a "popular uprising" in one city does not represent the wishes of the nation?

[Stu Monty]

Once again the suggestion of anti-semetism too. Shameless.

[aws]

So just because Hitler was elected, being elected carries no legitimacy? Democracy is great until somebody decides it isn't. Nice principle.

 

Svoboda aren't the only nasty right wingers in charge now.

 

Crimea has its own elected government which seems to be more than happy with Russia protecting it from Kiev. I assume they have no legitimacy because you don't like them.

[Strontium]

Show me where I called Russia the good guys. It's always the same with you now, blatant dishonesty or avoidance of a point in order to win what you seem to think is some massive debate tournament.

 

You avoided the question posed to you. Are you aware that a "popular uprising" in one city does not represent the wishes of the nation?

I'm never dishonest.

 

You didn't use the term "good guys" in relation to Russia, you put the term in inverted commas when referring to the EU/USA, while claiming that Russia was acting in the best interests of ths "majority of the people in Ukraine".

 

Obviously a popular ouprising in one city doesn't necessarily represent the wishes of the nation. Not sure what the point is, but there you go.

[Stu Monty]

I'm never dishonest.

 

You didn't use the term "good guys" in relation to Russia, you put the term in inverted commas when referring to the EU/USA, while claiming that Russia was acting in the best interests of ths "majority of the people in Ukraine".

 

Obviously a popular ouprising in one city doesn't necessarily represent the wishes of the nation. Not sure what the point is, but there you go.

 

You don't get the point that a country that agrees with its leaders might not be in favour of a "political uprising" in one city deposing them?

 

Like I say, either dishonest or very, very dim.

[Anubis]

Aren't the Russians simply pulling the 'secure your own backyard' shit that the US have been pulling in South America for years. The only difference is approach. The US prefer throwing money, weapons, and CIA advisers at disgruntled locals. The Russkies prefer a more hands-on approach.

[Strontium]

So just because Hitler was elected, being elected carries no legitimacy? Democracy is great until somebody decides it isn't. Nice principle.

 

Svoboda aren't the only nasty right wingers in charge now.

 

Crimea has its own elected government which seems to be more than happy with Russia protecting it from Kiev. I assume they have no legitimacy because you don't like them.

Being elected confers legitimacy until you act to dissolve democracy. Basic democratic theory.

 

Who are the other nasty right wingers?

 

If Crimea later decides it wants to secede from Ukraine in a free, fair referendum, then that is a path that may be trodden, when all of this has died down and Russia stops violating Ukrainian integrity.

 

I would note that Crimea is somewhat like Northern Ireland in that the native population were moved aside for a load of Russian settlers, who now form a majority.

[aws]

You don't get the point that a country that agrees with its leaders might not be in favour of a "political uprising" in one city deposing them?

 

Like I say, either dishonest or very, very dim.

He'd get the point if 5000 people marched on Westminster and drove Clegg into exile.

[Strontium]

You don't get the point that a country that agrees with its leaders might not be in favour of a "political uprising" in one city deposing them?

 

Like I say, either dishonest or very, very dim.

I'm not going to second guess what the population thinks of the leaders who have been deposed. The people will get the chance to have their say in free, fair elections after the crisis, no doubt.

 

Meanwhile, Russia has sent their troops into Ukraine without insignia, in violation of the Hague convention. But they're definitely not the bad guys, no.

[Strontium]

He'd get the point if 5000 people marched on Westminster and drove Clegg into exile.

If Clegg was acting to eradicate democracy in this country, I'd be driving him into exile myself. And I was one of the 200 people who nominated him for the leadership. It's called "principles".

[Stu Monty]

I'm not going to second guess what the population thinks of the leaders who have been deposed. The people will get the chance to have their say in free, fair elections after the crisis, no doubt.

 

Meanwhile, Russia has sent their troops into Ukraine without insignia, in violation of the Geneva convention. But they're definitely not the bad guys, no.

 

Yes. The geneva convention. Maybe if it certain nations weren't consistently wiping their arses with it then it might hold more moral weight to cite it. Also, if you hadn't howled "wolf" so many times about nations you disagree with dismantling democracy then that would also hold more water.

 

As the leading evidence-guided poster on the forum would you like to back up your claim that democracy was being eradicated. I wouldn't want to find out that we've got another "changing the contitution, via a vote, to allow further terms = dictator" incident on our hands.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Boo hoo! The naughty Russians! Crimea river!

 

North Korea have just fired two missiles into the sea too. We're all going to die. Just days before a certain sporting team wins the league. Bastards.

[Strontium]

Here's an article from a year ago about some of Yanukovych's anti-democratic measures:

 

http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/sergii-leshchenko/two-worlds-of-viktor-yanukovych%E2%80%99s-ukraine

[Gnasher]

If Clegg was acting to eradicate democracy in this country, I'd be driving him into exile myself. And I was one of the 200 people who nominated him for the leadership. It's called "principles".

^ Nick Clegg + principles in the same sentence.

[Stu Monty]

Here's an article from a year ago about some of Yanukovych's anti-democratic measures:

 

http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/sergii-leshchenko/two-worlds-of-viktor-yanukovych%E2%80%99s-ukraine

 

I will commence reading.

 

Whilst I am, if you have communication channels, you might want to contact Nick. Apparently, a mob is rising behind your claim that eroding human rights is legitimate reason for overthrowing a government. Some bollocks about the government secretly recording all their communications and withdrawing their access to legal aid to challenge it. Some other bollocks about journalists families being hounded at airports too! Sounds ominous!