Safe Standing.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Its the definition of safe that I am uncomfortable with. The picture of innsbruck doesnt show a full crowd - any stadium is safe with no one in it. If they spilled out onto the steps then in my mind that would begin to ring alarm bells. I'm not against standing but it would need to be thought out properly and managed professionally - for example, if someone in the crowd has a heart attack, how do the emergency services get there quickly? Things like that.

It is actually really well thought out about the standing. It is just like having a seat number except for standing its a number for standing . So in theory it is just as easy to pick out accidents or trouble. You have you own little space to stand in which has its own number.

[Phoenix]

I imagine moist fans believe that ticket prices will go down. They wont with each seat equating to a standing space. In the article they quoting the costs of ticket in the bundesliga without taking into account different factors.

[s(k)aturation]

I imagine moist fans believe that ticket prices will go down. 

 

I wonder what General Dryness thinks.

[M_B]

It is actually really well thought out about the standing. It is just like having a seat number except for standing its a number for standing . So in theory it is just as easy to pick out accidents or trouble. You have you own little space to stand in which has its own number.

 

In that pic you can see the majority of fans have gravitated to the center. Natually friends will want to stand together and people will try to get closer to the pitch, a better view etc.

 

Thats what I mean by managed professionally. If 20k + people can be then I'd be willing to bring it back.

[UnwelcomeinPeru]

Any change is unlikely. Football grounds which host top-flight matches in the UK must comply with regulations managed by the Football Licencing Authority, which include a requirement that all stadia are seated and seats individually ticketed. Those regulations were implemented in response to the Taylor Report. The Government would need to amend those regulations and would (most likely) only do so in response to a wide-ranging consultation. There is no appetite for such a consultation this side of the General Election in 2015, and given that this is not a party political issue, would not be a priority issue post the Election. 

[FanchesterCity]

There's a whole bunch of issues with safe standing:

 

1) The protection offered by the barriers is based on preventing fans being crushed by putting barriers in their way that create small enough individual pens that nobody at the back can push downwards (or the reverse for that matter).

 

2) Hillsborough had a similar system in place although the maintenance / condition on the barriers was called into question. Admittedly it's not exactly the same system, but Leppings Lane was based on the same fundamental principles of penning / barriers.

 

3) The barriers only work for a given number of people (plus some 'margin' for safety) and if they are maintained properly. We all know that from Hillsborough, overcrowding occured from other factors (poor decisions, poor turnstile throughput, poor signage to entrances and poor observation of the crowd etc). Those other factors can still fail.

 

4) With seating, it's much easier to spot overcrowding. One person per seat... very easy to sport issues on a camera, But with standing, things change... it's not quite as easy to spot overcrowding. That's not to say it's impossible, it's just prone to getting to higher levels of overcrowding before detection than seating is.

 

Of course, with modern turnstiles and electronic ticketing etc, it's also less likely for Hillsborough to happen again, but it's not impossible.

 

 

There is one thing though, that's rarely discussed... that seating CAN be a danger too. Fortunately we've not had a disaster with seating, but it's simply not a case of standing = bad, and seating = good. There are pros and cons to either, but the pros to seating have so far outweighed the cons, and made for a less risky option than standing.

 

IF for instance, fans were ever forced to evacuate due to a fire / collapse / explosion and panic ensued, then the seating could actually prove to be more of a hurdle than the barriers.

 

I would never say safe standing is wrong, and there's a hugely convincing argument for allowing it. But I can only speak personally and honestly....

 

I'd never want to see another Hillsborough, no fan deserves that. If that means sitting. I'll sit. If it means paying a bit more, I'll pay it. If it means a lack of atmosphere, I'll live with it.

 

I don't trust the police to get it right every time. I certainly don't trust the FA to get it right, and I can't really rely on the club to always look after our best interests either... and although controversial... I can't trust my fellow fans to behave as they should either. So with all that in mind, I'd rather take my chances with all seater.

[xerxes]

The Hillsborough paradox is that it was not caused by terracing, but if numbered seats had been in place, it would not have happened.

 

I agree that the definition of “safe standing” can be a moveable feast, what people mean by it varies, as does the risk.

 

Although anything can be dangerous I do not agree that seating is dangerous if evacuation is required. The slower egress from seats actually makes leaving by the exits quicker, because there is less bottleneck. With terracing the greater, more dense numbers that have to filter through the exits slows evacuation down.

 

Like it or not, terracing at football grounds has history in England and Scotland, and it is not a good one. Because the safety record of all seaters has been exemplary, it is difficult to see what the argument would be for changing from a safety perspective. In fact the conclusion of this campaign could be to enforce existing regulations for people to sit more stringently.

 

I would like a choice as to whether to stand, or sit, at the moment I don’t have that. But it is difficult to see how the change in the law will come about.

[Batigol]

Not if you've been having this debate for five minutes they haven't. I wasn't replying to you, I'd meant to quote Batigol to add to what he said.

Whilst the families are against it it's not going to happen.  Standing did play a part, obviously not the cause but it couldn't have happened in an all seater stadium, police simply couldn't  have fucked up then.

 

Then again what do the families know, they don't understand the disaster at all according to you.

[cochyn]

The Hillsborough paradox is that it was not caused by terracing, but if numbered seats had been in place, it would not have happened.

 

I agree that the definition of “safe standing” can be a moveable feast, what people mean by it varies, as does the risk.

 

Although anything can be dangerous I do not agree that seating is dangerous if evacuation is required. The slower egress from seats actually makes leaving by the exits quicker, because there is less bottleneck. With terracing the greater, more dense numbers that have to filter through the exits slows evacuation down.

 

Like it or not, terracing at football grounds has history in England and Scotland, and it is not a good one. Because the safety record of all seaters has been exemplary, it is difficult to see what the argument would be for changing from a safety perspective. In fact the conclusion of this campaign could be to enforce existing regulations for people to sit more stringently.

 

I would like a choice as to whether to stand, or sit, at the moment I don’t have that. But it is difficult to see how the change in the law will come about.

 

 

 

Good point (in full..) And that's it in a nutshell I think: Regardless of what the fans want, the maxim 'if it ain't broke, why fix it' will apply unless some budding politician makes it their cause and really pushes for it.

 

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Whilst the families are against it it's not going to happen.

And?

 

Standing did play a part

No it didn't.

 

obviously not the cause

Then what's your fucking point, because that's all I'm saying. Safe standing and Hillsborough have no connection.

 

but it couldn't have happened in an all seater stadium

Yes it could.

 

police simply couldn't have fucked up then.

Yes they could.

 

Then again what do the families know, they don't understand the disaster at all according to you.

What a shitty comment. Go fuck yourself. Which families regard standing as the cause of the disaster? Eh? Gobby shithouse. Don't you try to score points with me by using the families of victims into this. Prick.

[UnwelcomeinPeru]

Good point (in full..) And that's it in a nutshell I think: Regardless of what the fans want, the maxim 'if it ain't broke, why fix it' will apply unless some budding politician makes it their cause and really pushes for it.

 

I think this sums up Government policy on this issue. They would have to examine the concept of 'safe standing' first and it isn't really on their sport policy agenda at the moment. 

[Batigol]

 

 

 

What a shitty comment. Go fuck yourself. Which families regard standing as the cause of the disaster? Eh? Gobby shithouse. Don't you try to score points with me by using the families of victims into this. Prick.

 

 

 

What a shitty comment. Go fuck yourself. Which families regard standing as the cause of the disaster? Eh? Gobby shithouse. Don't you try to score points with me by using the families of victims into this. Prick.

Yea it was snide and I apologise for that much.  You of all people would surely understand snide and obnoxious.

 

My original post in this thread is one where I state safe standing can be done & I'd even be for it but I understand why there's people against it.

 

It's you that jumped in with doesn't understand the disaster shite.  

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Listen, I'm more than happy to discuss anything with you and if you've got problem with something I've said then fine (which was basically in agreement with your post, BTW). However, if you start with that shit, snide and obnoxious is the least you'll get in return. I accept your apology on that, because it was clearly out of order. I've nothing but respect for those families, who fought for justice for so long, so your comment was below the belt.

 

However, I stick by what I said. Those who use Hillsborough as a tool to throw at safe standing either don't understand the cause of the disaster or they're not thinking rationally. Of course the families of victims understand what happened, but from what I can tell none of them are saying they don't want safe standing because standing was the cause of the Hillsborough disaster. In which case, my comments were certainly not aimed at and are not applicable to those families.

[Batigol]

Listen, I'm more than happy to discuss anything with you and if you've got problem with something I've said then fine (which was basically in agreement with your post, BTW). However, if you start with that shit, snide and obnoxious is the least you'll get in return. I accept your apology on that, because it was clearly out of order. I've nothing but respect for those families, who fought for justice for so long, so your comment was below the belt.

 

However, I stick by what I said. Those who use Hillsborough as a tool to throw at safe standing either don't understand the cause of the disaster or they're not thinking rationally. Of course the families of victims understand what happened, but from what I can tell none of them are saying they don't want safe standing because standing was the cause of the Hillsborough disaster. In which case, my comments were certainly not aimed at and are not applicable to those families.

No one's ever said it was the cause, well no one on here, or the families but you get what I mean.  They're against safe standing though, and whilst that remains, it'll not happen at Anfield.

 

All I was saying originally is I understand why, even if I'd be for safe standing & actually agree with you on it.  As far as I can see, it's going to remain a mute point, in England & certainly at Anfield/new Anfield.

 

I've been to two games in Germany, and Liverpool fan or not it was a much more enjoyable experience than Anfield, so it's a shame.

[nando1000]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25269939

[navbasi]

Celtic confirmed on Wednesday they would become the first British club with an all-seater stadium to modify it to include so-called rail seats, which give spectators the option of whether to sit or stand during matches.

 

I wish we'd do that...

[Paco]

I think they re paving the way for standing to return across english football.

 

fans stand on the kop anyway and if you got a shove during a celebration you could easily go flying and trip over the seat in front.

[Dougie Do'ins]

Celtic confirmed on Wednesday they would become the first British club with an all-seater stadium to modify it to include so-called rail seats, which give spectators the option of whether to sit or stand during matches.

 

I wish we'd do that...

Yes.

[Paco]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/05/liverpool-supporters-consult-hillsborough-safe-standing-anfield

[jimmycase]

For obvious and personal reasons, no.

[moof]

For obvious and personal reasons, no.

What personal reason could you have for not wanting safe standing adopted in this country, like it is in Germany and, now, Scotland? The key word being 'safe', of course.

 

Nobody is calling for a return to the old terracing or fencing fans in like cattle. This has been tried and tested and proven safe. Besides, personally, I hate sitting down at football matches. I reckon if you're on your feet, you feel more involved in the game.

[Strontium]

Anything would be an improvement on the preposterous shit you have now where you are up and down like a whore's drawers.

[Paul]

Deffo. Standing had nothing to do with Hillsborough. Gross negligence from the police, ambulance service and the FA in combination with Thatcher's view of football fans caused it.

[Paco]

Is it working well at celtic?

[liverpoolsno9]

If it's safe, what's wrong with it? Im sure the families would say the same. The family I know say it anyway. I fully understand the emotion involved, but it's safe.