This 'Ghost Midfield' of ours....

[bri]

The Arsenal result makes the results against Soton, Newcastle and Swansea stick out more. I can see why were playing 3-5-2 pretty well now. As a 3 were reasonably solid, we retained and bought well in those positions in the summer. The front two is where we have immediate threat (all be it no cover) so we have to pack the midfield. The one area where on the whole we failed to improve in (Coutiniho aside) 

 

Pack the 3 in the middle of the park in a 2 and a 1 or a 1 and 2 depending on who were playing and have the 2 wing backs bombing on to give the width. I actually like the formation but it means players have to be solid in their positions.

 

I only go so far in saying "oh your asking a full back to be a wing back and that's out of his normal parameters." Yeah maybe in Div 2 but at the top of the premier league. If your taking that view at the top of the game there's something wrong with the coaching. There is something seriously wrong in anyones coaching book if you can't ask a full back to get forward and whip a cross in every now and then. I thought they were all failed wingers anyway.

 

For all his engine work and every teams needs someone to dog it out Henderson just lacks the quality in his final play / ball. The two attempts he had one left and one right were just outright poor. The finish with his left was just shit. Lucas does a shift in breaking it up and moving it on and Gerrard isn't the Gerrard when he was 25, box to box. In fact the only coach to coach Gerrard well was Rafa. Playing him in the area where he knew he could do the most damage. under RH he was dreadful trying to play every position and in the end looking lost. Under BR for me again he's been too deep only occassionally getting into that No 10 position effecting play around the box.

 

So I can why BR is packing that midfield with 5 as he knows it's limited and as soon as we can get the ball to the front two the better.

 

That said Arsenal all looked like ball players yesterday I thought they passed it brilliantly, one, two touch. When we click we click well but I don't think we have that "ball player" mentality running through the team yet 

[Tony Moanero]

Steve Geard is not 

 

needs a complete make over if were to step up to the top table.I doubt it'll happen until next summer so hopefully we'll squeeze into top 4 this year.I can accept stevie not havin legs or fitness to drive us forward anymore but its fucking awful watching him pull out of every single 50/50 tackle,hes either thinking of England or knows one more injury will finish his career for good.The lack of pace,drive,support,power and ability to create is what we need to address in next summers window.

 

Lucas and Henderson wouldnt be bad squad players but theyll never be top drawer ......if Gerrard was 5 years younger and we still had Alonso & Masch in their prime,we'd be top and favourites without a doubt!

 

I think were only 3/4 top players from being a great side....go and tell FSG to sign them Brendon! YNWA

What a load of bollocks.

[Tony Moanero]

The midfield has been crap against almost everyone. Only the SAS get out of jail card and mignolet's shot stopping are keeping us competitive.

Fucking hell.

 

"SAS" was shite in the mid-nineties, and guess what? It's sill fucking shite.

[Trucker Paddy]

If we continue with 5-3-2, and Couthinio is in the MF 3, then the other 2 have to be given a high energy performance for 90 minutes, as it stands only Henderson can do that, maybe Allen can and might get his chance, but one thing for sure Lucas and Gerrard can't. We'll batter Fulham next week but the games v Everton spurs city and Chelsea could go same way as yesterday if we don't sort out the midfield.

If Gerrard and Lucas keep starting then around the hour we need to freshen it up and hook one or 2. I think Allen might get a game next week.

 

 

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[The Golden Eel]

I think some posters on here need to show a little more respect to one of our greatest ever players.

Lot of shite. He should be subject to the same scrutiny as every other player. I haven't seen anyone being disrespectful, just levelling fair criticism

[Batigol]

Lot of shite. He should be subject to the same scrutiny as every other player. I haven't seen anyone being disrespectful, just levelling fair criticism

Saying he's not trying and saving himself only for England is highly disrespectful.  That's not aimed at you, I can't remember what cunt said it last night.

[The Golden Eel]

Yes that's just stupid, obviously

[Rambo]

If Suarez or Sturidige don't score we don't score.

At least it's not "if Suarez doesn't score"

[Babb'sBurstNad]

The central pairing will always look suspect, unless they're absolutely on form, when there's little on either side of them.

 

We're playing with wingbacks who are intended to aid both midfield and defence with their movements, intelligently switching in a fluid formation. The problem is this isn't happening, certainly not with Cissokho.

 

We should be gaining a body in midfield - and we might do with Johnson and Enrique in the side - but with understudies we're just losing a body in the middle of the pitch.

[RedRazor]

Lot of shite. He should be subject to the same scrutiny as every other player. I haven't seen anyone being disrespectful, just levelling fair criticism

I don't think he is though. He is measured against what we have all seen him do for many years and he can't do it anymore. Look at how Henderson is being judged. He is judged against his own previous poor form and is perceived in some quarters to be "getting better" and will continue to improve. If I had to choose between Gerrard or Henderson in the tean for the next game then I would choose Gerrard because he still has far greater quality than Henderson even if he doesn't have the same engine.

[aws]

Against arsenal you have to flood midfield to try and frustrate them and then hit them on the counter as they push more and more men forward. We did the opposite. Three CBs marking one striker, two wing-backs not really tucking in and two strikers trying to press in isolation. The midfield battle was 5 against 3 and we had no real chance of competing.

 

A similar thing happened first half at Newcastle where we had three CBs marking nobody as their sole striker dropped deep and we were outnumbered.

 

We're set up badly. Sometimes we've got away with it as we've had two strikers on fire but we're vulnerable.

[Guest LFD]

I feel any formation can work if you have the right players.  

 

When the club made the decision in the summer that Suarez was not going anywhere, then we should have looked at which formation we want to play and buy players to fit that system.

 

The problem is I'm still not sure Rodgers knows which system he wants to play, maybe because he didn't know if Suarez was staying or going right until the end of the window?!  I'm not sure.

 

But as soon as we knew Suarez was staying, I can see why Rodgers has looked at three at the back, as it allows Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho all to play in their best positions.  They still all haven't played together in three at the back, so maybe that's when we judge the formation more?

 

The problem is regardless of which formation we play, Lucas and Gerrard lack mobility and energy.  Which is why Henderson is needed alongside them to do a lot of their running and pressing, but he can't do all of it.  Those three look a good combination when all together against most sides, as it showed vs West Brom and plenty of times last season.  But it is still not perfect and really those three are doing the job that Mascherano and Alonso used to do between them and not as good as them either.

 

If we can find pair that can do a similar job to Alonso and Mascherano.  Offering energy, steel, ability to keep the ball and control matches, then we could have Coutinho in front of them instead of Henderson and that would make us a much better side.

 

I still don't think the midfield are helped with our approach.  The centre backs are deep, I don't think we have tried to play offside since Rodgers has been here, we just have no interest in it.  The centre backs are deep and the front two are rightly told to stay high, this gives the midfield a massive gap to fill.  This gives them a problem, as do they sit back and protect the defense or do they press - leaving the defense exposed.  They did the latter vs Arsenal and in most games this season and as a result they look poor.

 

If you look at Arsenal their back four are high up the pitch, which gives their midfield a much easier task as they can press teams far more easily and as a unit.  Henderson can't press sides on his own, it has to be collective and we won't press effectively as a team until we play a high defensive line and their is no excuse not to play that way given the centre backs we have.

 

Alonso, Mascherano (and Gerrard ahead of them pressing) might be better than the centre midfield we have now.  But under Benitez we were a much more compressed side, they had less space to cover and it helped them.  Now we are far more open than we were under Benitez and the midfield will be more exposed as a result.  As a team we aren't keeping the ball well enough to defend in possession.  This means the midfield are having a big work load and given the centre backs are deep, it makes pressing really tough.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think we can improve on Lucas, Gerrard and Henderson.  But we don't help them with our tactics, which is exposing them more and giving them a thankless job.

[Jairzinho]

Could just swap their positions and they'd both play better.

[The Golden Eel]

I don't think he is though. He is measured against what we have all seen him do for many years and he can't do it anymore. Look at how Henderson is being judged. He is judged against his own previous poor form and is perceived in some quarters to be "getting better" and will continue to improve. If I had to choose between Gerrard or Henderson in the tean for the next game then I would choose Gerrard because he still has far greater quality than Henderson even if he doesn't have the same engine.

I think we need to get past the poibt that Gerrard is a guaranteed starter, he's not producing consistently. I'm not say he should never play but the fact that the midfield seems to be Gerrard + x is something went need to think about and face because when you see a performance likes he put in yesterday in our biggest game of the season so far, you have to be honest and accept that he isn't at the status of say Suarez and Sturridge, for example, as someone who is indispensable to the team. Plus it's also hard to justify signing another central midfielder if you're working on the premise that Gerrard always has to play.

[Guest LFD]

Could just swap their positions and they'd both play better.

 

I assume you mean Henderson and Gerarrd?

 

In the short term, I think that would be better than what we are currently doing, as Henderson has the energy to be the box to box player and can help Lucas more than Gerrard does.  Also Gerarrd is clearly a far bigger threat in the final third than Henderson.  But it won't solve the pressing issue, which will still be a problem until the centre backs push up the field more.

 

But saying all that, as much as I love Gerrard - I'd rather Coutinho got that more attacking centre role.  So I wouldn't just swap Henderson and Gerrard.  

 

For me I think Rodgers should make a bold decision and pick either Lucas or Gerarrd as the holding midfielder, have Henderson (or Allen) as the box to box player and Coutinho as the attacking midfielder.  But we still will have issues while the midfield have such a big space to occupy.

[aws]

Just play four at the back and a midfield diamond of Lucas - Gerrard and Henderson - Coutinho. Everybody in their 'normal' positions - none of this finding room for central midfielders by sticking them out on the wings in a 4-4-2.

 

We don't have any top wingers so find a formation that adapts to the players we do have. 3-5-2 can be a pretty shit formation at the best of times but it needs top class wing- backs to make it work and only Johnson remotely fits into that category.

[Guest LFD]

Just play four at the back and a midfield diamond of Lucas - Gerrard and Henderson - Coutinho. Everybody in their 'normal' positions - none of this finding room for central midfielders by sticking them out on the wings in a 4-4-2.

 

We don't have any top wingers so find a formation that adapts to the players we do have. 3-5-2 can be a pretty shit formation at the best of times but it needs top class wing- backs to make it work and only Johnson remotely fits into that category.

 

Against the weaker sides I'd go with that.

 

But against the top sides or some tough away from home games, I think we need more energy than Gerrard and Lucas provide and I think Rodgers needs to be bold and drop one of them for Allen.  I'm not Allen's biggest fan, but he is much more effective than Gerrard at pressing.  Lucas or Gerrard can be the DM and let Henderson and Allen do the pressing, as Henderson can't do it alone.

 

Against the smaller teams it is not so bad as we should have plenty of possession anyway.

[Fi!]

I wonder if BR has the balls to play a trio of Henderson/Allen/Coutinho. It is full of energy with Allen capable to playing DM and Henderson to support him. Coutinho being the furthest of them all. Not saying that this is good, but they are the "future" of the midfield with what we have at the moment.

 

With Gerrard always seems to start, there has to be defensive cover and a runner built around him. However some time, his performance is just too disappointing for a midfield that is built to support his game play.

[Bjornebye]

Some fella said in the bog at half time that rodgers should stick an england shirt on gerrard so he runs in the second half. 

 

sadly, he was bang on the money. 

 

Lucas as i've been saying for a long time is not top drawer and there is far too much pressure on that role for him to be the main man. 

 

On a positive note, i'd have taken our points tally at the start of the season so lets not cry too much. 

[Guest LFD]

I wonder if BR has the balls to play a trio of Henderson/Allen/Coutinho. It is full of energy with Allen capable to playing DM and Henderson to support him. Coutinho being the furthest of them all. Not saying that this is good, but they are the "future" of the midfield with what we have at the moment.

 

I don't think he would dare do it, given he is a young manager and probably wants the support of his captain and fans.  Some might welcome the idea of the bold decision, but it would be a big decision, especially when Gerrard does have the odd cracking game and could put him under pressure.  

 

Gerrard still has a lot to offer, I just don't think Arsenal away is the match he necessarily needs to play, especially from the start.

[Jairzinho]

I assume you mean Henderson and Gerarrd?

 

In the short term, I think that would be better than what we are currently doing, as Henderson has the energy to be the box to box player and can help Lucas more than Gerrard does.  Also Gerarrd is clearly a far bigger threat in the final third than Henderson.  But it won't solve the pressing issue, which will still be a problem until the centre backs push up the field more.

 

But saying all that, as much as I love Gerrard - I'd rather Coutinho got that more attacking centre role.  So I wouldn't just swap Henderson and Gerrard.  

 

For me I think Rodgers should make a bold decision and pick either Lucas or Gerarrd as the holding midfielder, have Henderson (or Allen) as the box to box player and Coutinho as the attacking midfielder.  But we still will have issues while the midfield have such a big space to occupy.

 

Agree with pretty much all of that.

 

Lucas Henderson

Coutinho

 

That would be my first choice midfield three in a 4-2-3-1 formation. I think 4-3-1-2 would suit us even more though, and that would have Henderson/Gerrard/Lucas/Coutinho all playing.

 

I don't think swapping Gerrard and Henderson would solve the pressing issue as a team, but it would in more dangerous areas. I can't help but keep thinking of Dalglish's first six months back (I know I've mentioned it before!). It would suit us now especially as we appear to have moved away from trying to dominate possession. We'd have a more solid base in midfield with two players covering the back four and I think we actually end up with more players attacking, because the four in front would have the license given by the two sitting. In the current formation we seem to often just have three attacking, and a huge disconnect between them and those behind.

[Bjornebye]

I would also drop Gerrard the next game too. 

[Jairzinho]

Its not even really dropping. Its just managing a player in his thirties, in the most physically demanding league in the world. We're playing Fulham, who are pure shit. Give him a well deserved breather.

[Guest LFD]

Its not even really dropping. Its just managing a player in his thirties, in the most physically demanding league in the world. We're playing Fulham, who are pure shit. Give him a well deserved breather.

 

I agree, it is managing him.

 

Although I'd play him against Fulham, they don't press and he was brilliant against them last season at home.

 

For me Arsenal away is not the type of game to play him, when we need energy and mobility.  Fulham at home is perfect for him to still thrive.

[Batigol]

Its not even really dropping. Its just managing a player in his thirties, in the most physically demanding league in the world. We're playing Fulham, who are pure shit. Give him a well deserved breather.

It's a week until we play Fulham, then a fortnight until the derby.  I'm assuming this is for more pointless internationals.  He doesn't need rested at this stage.  What's needed is the balls to sub him if he's having an off day.

 

The biggest problem is there's no centre midfielder of his ability, even at it's current diminished state, in the squad.