Featured: "Should we persist with three at the back?"

[Tony Moanero]

I like 352, I like the idea of freeing up Johnson and Enrique to attack at will.

 

However, in the middle of the park they just don't move the ball quickly enough and they don't move forward enough.

 

Now, there are reasons for this:

 

1) We don't push up enough as a defence. Also, upon pushing up, we don't retain the ball for long enough periods to push them back. 50 yard raking balls across the field are unnecessary, if you're going to hit a long ball then put it over the top of the defence for christs sake.

 

2) The central midfielders aren't 'dangerous' to the opposition from open play. So the opposition don't mind them having the ball. Now, Coutinho with the ball, that's concerning to them. But Henderson, Lucas and Gerrard with the ball, not a concern for them.

 

3) We don't utilise the wingbacks very well. Again, it's a bit of a midfield issue. If the wingbacks are held up by the full back, then how about a midfielder take the initiative and make a run on the outside to drag that full back away? But no, the midfielders stay central and offer almost zero movement.

 

 

Put it this way, look around at the central midfields of some of our PL friends: (not attacking midfield)

 

Arsenal: Arteta, Wilshire, Ramsey, Rosicky, Diaby, Flamini

Chelsea: Essien, Ramires, Obi Mikel, Lampard

Everton: Gibson, Barry, McCarthy, Barkley, Gueye, Osman

M City : Milner, Garcia, Rodwell, Fernandinho, Yaya Toure

M United: Anderson, Carrick, Fletcher, Fellaini

Newcastle: Cabaye, Sissoko, Anita, Tiote

Southampton: Schneiderlin, Wanyama, Ward-Prowse, Davis

Spurs: Paulinho, Capoue, Dembele, Sandro

 

 

And then look at us:

 

Gerrard, Henderson, Allen, Lucas

 

 

I think if we swapped our midfield with any from the above clubs then we'd be top of the league and we'd remain there.

 

Imagine the possibilities:

 

 

--------------Mig--------------

---Toure-----Agger------Sakho---

Johnson------------------Enrique

-----------Lucas--------------

------Ramsey------Coutinho-------

----Suarez----------Sturridge----

 

Or

 

--------------Mig--------------

---Toure-----Agger------Sakho---

Johnson------------------Enrique

-------------Lucas--------------

------Barkley-----Coutinho-------

----Suarez----------Sturridge----

 

 

Don't go telling me 352 is the problem, it's not. You cannot ignore the dysfunctional central midfield set-up we have, it's frustrating as fuck to watch, we're top of the league 'despite' of our midfield, not because of it, that's the stark truth here that a lot of you don't want to hear.

 

I'll tell you this as well, you'll never prove me wrong. Next year Gerrard will be 34 and Henderson will still be Henderson. I fancy my odds thanks.

We're 3rd!

[Bjornebye]

352 if Johnson and Enrique are playing. If they aren't then fuck it off. 

[Code]

Why would people want Johnson and Enrique in midfield, seeing as they are not very good at it?

 

Why not play actual attacking players in midfield instead or even midfielders for that sake?

[Tony Moanero]

3-5-2 is for pussies.

[stringvest]

3-5-2 is only being used to accommodate our centre backs.  I don't think there's a case for it when many teams are playing with one forward.  I'd rather us play with 2 CBs, and let the full backs play as full backs.  There's nothing stopping them rampaging up the flanks if we have solid and mobile CB and DM.  Johnson aside, our full backs are just not equipped mentally or technically to play a true wing back game.  

[Guest LFD]

3-5-2 is only being used to accommodate our centre backs.  

 

It is also being used to get the best out of Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez as all can play central, even though we haven't played it with all three together yet. 

[Code]

If we had 4 at the back the fullback would have covered Cazorla for Arsenals first goal or at least challenged him.

 

We had no one there though as all our CB's ahd been dragged into the middle and Flanno was in midfield.

 

Terrible, just terrible.

[Gym Beglin]

3-5-2 is only being used to accommodate our centre backs. I don't think there's a case for it when many teams are playing with one forward. I'd rather us play with 2 CBs, and let the full backs play as full backs. There's nothing stopping them rampaging up the flanks if we have solid and mobile CB and DM. Johnson aside, our full backs are just not equipped mentally or technically to play a true wing back game.

I think Enrique is a natural wing back as well. I think if he played for a CL team and we were linked with him we'd cream ourselves.

 

I don't think Lucas is the problem, I think it's his two midfield partners who leave him exposed time and time again.

[stringvest]

It is also being used to get the best out of Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez as all can play central, even though we haven't played it with all three together yet. 

 

there is nothing stopping that scenario with a back four.  

[stringvest]

I think Enrique is a natural wing back as well. I think if he played for a CL team and we were linked with him we'd cream ourselves.

 

I don't think Lucas is the problem, I think it's his two midfield partners who leave him exposed time and time again.

 

Lucas is at least as culpable as those two.  The other midfielders are not there exclusively to shield or cover Lucas.  They are also supposed to contribute going forward, press high and link the play.  Lucas has no such responsibility.  His is to position himself correctly, read and anticipate the play, and intercept the ball or the runner.  Saturday's game was not a great example, as were outnumbered in midfield, and almost every player in a red shirt was off his game.  But WBA apart, I have not seen a game where the 3-5-2 has looked coherent or convincing. 

[Gym Beglin]

The problem that people forget is that we don't have any wingers, so playing a system with wingers or wide attackers is nuts.

 

Sterling, Ibe, Moses. Not exactly a frightening prospect for the opposition is it. We have to use our strengths, and our strengths are in defence and up front, and that we can play with wing backs to give us width. The players in the middle need only do the basics and we should beat teams. If they don't do the basics well, like keep the ball and keep an eye on the midfield when they break, then you have to question why we're persisting with them.

 

Gerrard is undroppable because of his status. It doesn't matter if he's the best long-ranger passer in the team, or the best penalty take, or the person with most international caps, it just doesn't matter if he doesn't do the basics in the middle of the park. But it's not his fault, it's not even Rodgers' fault, he would get castigated by the press and the fans if he dropped Gerrard. What sort of conditions are they for a manager to work under??

 

"You can pick any side you want, as long as Gerrard is centre mid".

 

Umm, it's sort of fucking important that there is a balance to the side and right now we don't have it. We had it in 2009, but that's four years ago now. It's unfair for people to have the same expectations on Gerrard now as they had then. Christ, even back then it was different because he mostly played behind the striker, and he had Alonso to rely on, with Mascherano as well.

[Guest LFD]

there is nothing stopping that scenario with a back four.  

 

Fair comment.

[Jairzinho]

4-3-1-2

 

-Back four

-No wingers

-Can play our best three attacking players

[stringvest]

I don't know where this 'Gerrard cannot be dropped and must play centre midfield' speculation has come from, but it seems to have turned into a fact.  

 

Given what we have in the way of resources, against Fulham I would play Allen and Henderson in CM, with Gerrard on the right and Coutinho on the left.  

[stringvest]

4-3-1-2

 

-Back four

-No wingers

-Can play our best three attacking players

 

or this - not fussed

[mattyq]

I think Agger needs to come back to replace Toure and i think i'd rest Gerrard against Fulham by giving Allen a run out

[Gnasher]

No

[Carvalho Diablo]

fuck it off. 

 

Fixed that for you mate.

[Pureblood]

This issue is defining our season.  

[Carvalho Diablo]

It is also being used to get the best out of Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez as all can play central, even though we haven't played it with all three together yet. 

 

4-3-1-2 would also play to Suarez, Coutinho, and Sturridge's strengths...and it would add more balance to the midfield.

 

5 at the back is bullshit and almost 40 years of watching footy has not convinced me otherwise. Not even remotely.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

3-5-2/5-3-2 can work well (didn't Kenny play five at the back in the first game against Chelsea after Torres left?), but only if you've got the right wingbacks and the CBs work in a cohesive manner with the DM. We're just not looking well drilled enough for it. 

 

Two CBs who know how to position in accordance to one another, and will take responsibility, is infinitely preferable to three CBs unsure who's supposed to do what.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

4-3-1-2

 

-Back four

-No wingers

-Can play our best three attacking players

Yep. I was advocating that variant of 433 myself last week. It's not all that different to what we saw last year, with Coutinho drifting inside at every opportunity.

 

I'll be very dissappointed if we start with five defenders against Fulham. Yes, the two fullbacks are pushed forward, by they were in a four, too.

[Lee909]

I agree with the 4-3-1-2 but tge midfield will still be shite.

Gerrard and Lucas isnt a effective partnership imo.If you drop Henderson we will lack any energy in the mifield, nit thst a player should be in the team due to that. Lucas is looking slower than he did pre injury and he just hasn't been as effective. Too many times Arsenal just walked the ball through the midfield unapossed as the pair of them just sat off then one pass completely cut them out the game as they look far too flat footed.

We wont play many better footballing midfields but past Liverpool midfields with the likes of Alonso, Macherano and Momo would have eaten them alive by getting in there faces.

Personally I think its time Gerrard was used either as a attacking midfielder in the basic three of a 433 abd only deeper in games were we will dominate possession at home to some of the relegation fodder.Without wanting to start a Rafa debate its something I agreed with him on, Gerrsrd isnt a great midfielder in a two.You loose too much of his attacking intent.

Personally I think we need at least two quality midfielders with some pace and power.

I think Lucas needs replaced.

He isnt mobile enough to cover the soace and is still giving away far too msny stupid freekicks.

[Lee909]

I see TK still cant take any criticism of Lucas without it causing a short circuit in his head.

Can anyone remember our midgield 2/3 putting together 2-3 good games on the bounce tjis year?. 

[Gym Beglin]

343?

 

 

-----------------mig-------------------

 

-----Toure------Agger--------Sakho-----

 

Johnson----Allen-----Lucas-------Enrique

 

--Sturridge----Suarez-----Coutinho-----

 

 

I think that we need to go on the front foot, this is how we're going to pick up points between now and January, at which point we can shop for a proper fucking midfielder.