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Foreign players not England's issue (ESPN article)


dave u
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As far as international football goes, I take little more than a passing interest unless it's a World Cup or European Championship summer. Like everyone else, I get caught up in all of the excitement of a big summer tournament, but when it comes to qualifiers and friendlies -- especially those involving England -- the only thing I really care about is that Liverpool's players report back to Melwood unscathed.

That probably dates back to the serious Achilles injury picked up by John Barnes on England duty in 1992; he was never the same player after that as he lost at least a yard of pace, possibly even two. Don't get me wrong, I like to see LFC players doing themselves justice when they are on England duty, but if they have a stinker whilst wearing the three lions on their chest, my only worry is whether any loss of confidence or media criticism might impact on their club form. If England lost every game they played I honestly wouldn't lose a minute's sleep over it.

For me, international breaks are simply inconveniences that get in the way of the domestic club season. Bill Shankly once famously said, "If Everton were playing in my back garden I'd close the curtains." That sums up my feelings towards England, but that lack of emotional attachment perhaps makes it easier to see things with a more unbiased view than say, an FA Chairman for example.

I read with interest Greg Dyke's comments this week in which he pointed to the increase in foreign players since the formation of the Premier League as a big factor in the continuing struggles of the England national side. He's obviously right in saying the number of English players in the top flight is a lot less now than it was before the Premier League was launched, the numbers speak for themselves on that issue, but he's kidding himself if he genuinely thinks that is the reason England are regularly found wanting on the big stage.

Read the full article here.
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Dykes comments don't stack up. English clubs won the European Cup 6 times in succession from 1977 to 1982 while England failed to qualify for a World Cup in 1974 and 1978. It goes in cycles, Bloemfontaine was the blueprint in 1990's, where are the French now? Spain have got lucky just like Man Utd in the late 1990's as have Germany now.

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Dykes comments don't stack up. English clubs won the European Cup 6 times in succession from 1977 to 1982 while England failed to qualify for a World Cup in 1974 and 1978. It goes in cycles, Bloemfontaine was the blueprint in 1990's, where are the French now? Spain have got lucky just like Man Utd in the late 1990's as have Germany now.

 

 

And Belgium for that matter.

 

I agree that it as much down to chance and timing as good coaching at youth level. You can have the best coaches in the world but they can't turn a Danny Welbeck into an Alan Shearer or a James Milner into a John Barnes. England need about 4 or 5 players of Gerrard quality to come through at once to be competitive on the world stage.

 

The sad thing is, when they have had sides good enough to win tournaments (which includes the 90s and possibly even the early 2000s) they have invariably seen their chances scuppered by a combination of bad management and psychological weakness.

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And Belgium for that matter.

 

I agree that it as much down to chance and timing as good coaching at youth level. You can have the best coaches in the world but they can't turn a Danny Welbeck into an Alan Shearer or a James Milner into a John Barnes. England need about 4 or 5 players of Gerrard quality to come through at once to be competitive on the world stage.

 

The sad thing is, when they have had sides good enough to win tournaments (which includes the 90s and possibly even the early 2000s) they have invariably seen their chances scuppered by a combination of bad management and psychological weakness.

 

Thing is mate the likes of Wellbeck and Milner if coached better from a younger age could be far better, you only need to look at how many English/British managers are held in high regard across the world, ffs look at our own set up with Hodgson and Pearce.

 

I actually think in about 5-10 years time there will be a few good young English players who will become top managers due to the influx of foreign coaches and having worked under their methods for the past 10 -20 years.

 

The FA as usual just want to point the finger for their own failures

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There's loads of excuses for England not performing.

 

Refereeing is one. England have had some shocking refereeing decisions at crucial games over the years, goals ridiculously ruled out, goals ridiculously allowed, daft red cards etc. Plus losing all those penalty shoot outs.

 

Those are fine margins which would make our record a damn sight better.

 

But another factor is the domestic refereeing that at all levels allows the creative players to be kicked off the park. That is 100% in the FA's control but I don't hear Dyke mentioning that, the thick manc twat.

 

You don't see the equivalent of a Stoke City surviving in any other top league in Europe but it's OK in this country for them thugs to prosper and even be applauded for it by parts of the media. The Championship and lower leagues are full of the same with even more lenient refereeing, it's no wonder we can't nurture technical players when it's booted out of them at an early age.

 

Dyke is just a shithouse politician, no vision, no answers just shooting his mouth off and getting plenty of media attention

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But another factor is the domestic refereeing that at all levels allows the creative players to be kicked off the park.

 

Yep, that and the fact that english coaches discard far too many kids with genuine talent in favour of those who are just bigger, stronger and faster at the same age. I’m sure that’s why we end up with U21 teams full of great athletes, many with decent technique who stand around like showroom dummies without a clue how to actually move and play the game. Apparently the spanish coaches at the Academy are much more patient than the english ones. If they can see some of the qualities they think are important in a youngster they’re prepared to give them a lot more time to develop the other aspects as they grow up.

 

It’s the neanderthal attitudes of english coaches that are the real problem but, seeing at players like Jordan Rossiter coming through, I’m hopeful that Segura and Borrell have effected a real sea change at Liverpool.

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Why do you think that England doesn't produce players with the technical ability of Gascoigne and Waddle anymore?

 

It seems very strange to me. Where have these types of players gone?

 

Jack Wilshere would probably fall into that bracket. Aswell as Gibbs at Arsenal aswell,

 

Or do you mean flair players?

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Why do you think that England doesn't produce players with the technical ability of Gascoigne and Waddle anymore?

 

It seems very strange to me. Where have these types of players gone?

 

Those type of players were allowed to nuture their talent in either lower league or teams that had no title ambitions. A Gazza or Waddle would either be flogged to death or not given the chance if they didn't shine in their first few games in the PL of today.

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Jack Wilshere would probably fall into that bracket. Aswell as Gibbs at Arsenal aswell,

 

Or do you mean flair players?

 

 

I mean skilful players. Players who can take on opponents and create moments of magic through instinct and technical ability.

 

There are very few of them around nowadays.

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Why do you think that England doesn't produce players with the technical ability of Gascoigne and Waddle anymore?

 

It seems very strange to me. Where have these types of players gone?

 

Too many Prozone players. Managers are signing players based on how far they run, how many crosses they put in etc and are picking their teams based on these stats. Premier League teams have too many players who create no danger to the opposition. They should be asking can he control the ball and retain it under pressure. The current England squad is the worst I can remember by a long long way.

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Completely agree with this article. I read Carra's column in the Daily Fail, and was disappointed that he would hold that view. He also undermined his entire argument by refuting Dyke's claim that our academies are packed with foreign kids. They're predominantly English. Therefore why don't more get through and play in the Premier League? Because they're not quite good as good as the foreign imports (who play in National sides England aspire to beat?!).

 

The best ones do get through anyway, take your Sturridge's and Wilshere's.

 

I agree foreign players have been good for this game, they've raised the bar considerably to the standard that our youngsters in academies need to reach, or be better than.

 

The reason more aren't of the standard to make it through? I think it's a grass roots problem. I'm sure St. Georges park is magnificent, but how many young players will ever play at it?

 

The level of coaching at youth amateur level is poor. Players aren't learning the right things, and the emphasis isn't on technique enough. Also the pitches they play on are not of the right quality, and get waterlogged in Winter.

 

The FA, or some body, needs to invest in better 3g facilities nationally for young players. People might talk about the cost, but this is the national game, the most popular pastime in this wealthy country, where we have the worlds richest league. The money needs to trickle down to this level. Or even lottery funding.

 

Also with the quality of coaches, how many young people who love and are knowledgeable about football, would pursue coaching as a part time pastime, or as a career, if funding was made available to pay these people?

 

That would be my vision - professional or semi professional coaches, coaching in centres or in leagues around the country, on proper pitches.

 

And guess fucking what, I bet we'd find a lot more of these talented young kids making it to academies and ultimately taking the place of these foreign players.

 

Will never happen of course, greed rules in our game and no one would ever commit the funding to do it properly, but still, it's a nice dream.

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I used to be haevily involved in youth coaching. I coached in youth tournaments against some of the best young sides in Europe. The teams from Britain (and Ireland) are a very poor comparison to their equivalents 20/30 years ago. The standard of young lads I see at local clubs are much poorer and they don't have the same drive by and large to make it, as they used to.

 

The Liam Bradys or the Kenny Daglish's of this world learnt their game on the streets. Liverpool in the 70's and 80's were made up of lads from Scotland, Ireland, Newcastle and Liverpool, yet the football we played was as good as anything you would see elsewhere. When was the last world class youngster to come from Glasgow, Dublin or Newcastle - all hotbeds for producing young talent in the past.

 

These academies might teach kids how to eat and how to be fit..while the continental clubs and the South Americans hone the skills that their lads learn on the street.

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England lacks a systematic plan of nuturing young talent. Germany went from scratch when they didn't advance from the group stages in EURO2000. Spain has done that even before Germany (since Olympic Games in Bareclona '92 I'd guess). I'm closer to the German example and they sacrificed their style of play which brought them many success in the past and started whit something completely new. Their rules about academies and home-grown players are strict and they produce talented youngsters regularly. If you only look at the PL you see non-English players who are shite and no better then home-grown. It's whole another story to import players like Yaya, Silva, Mata, van Persie, Suarez or average players like Rodallega, Vaz Te, etc.

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I used to be haevily involved in youth coaching. I coached in youth tournaments against some of the best young sides in Europe. The teams from Britain (and Ireland) are a very poor comparison to their equivalents 20/30 years ago. The standard of young lads I see at local clubs are much poorer and they don't have the same drive by and large to make it, as they used to.

 

The Liam Bradys or the Kenny Daglish's of this world learnt their game on the streets. Liverpool in the 70's and 80's were made up of lads from Scotland, Ireland, Newcastle and Liverpool, yet the football we played was as good as anything you would see elsewhere. When was the last world class youngster to come from Glasgow, Dublin or Newcastle - all hotbeds for producing young talent in the past.

 

These academies might teach kids how to eat and how to be fit..while the continental clubs and the South Americans hone the skills that their lads learn on the street.

 

 

 

I was reading the program from the Ireland v Sweden game at halftime ,a article about a squad from 87 which was made up of players from Liverpool,Man U ,Arsenal,Spurs,Celtic etc ...looking at the current squad its made up of players from lower prem to lower league players.Its a similar trait in Scotland.

Players from here used go over and get schooled at the top clubs,progress and turn into great players .Thats not happening now,as some international with 70 caps from some eastern european town is taking their spot in the squad and managers and clubs are under so much pressure they cant take the risk anymore.If Ronnie Whelan was 21 now ,he would not make it at Liverpool...he wouldn't get the time

The talent is there still,but players need playing time and top class coaching to mature ,they aint getting that nowadays.

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I think it runs deeper than that though, I can't remember the last time I saw a kid playing footy in the street, it must be years. I imagine the best youngsters are picked up at school and then taken to academies to have all the life sucked out of them, but that's a very narrow net. Most lads probably stop playing altogether in their mid teens when there's the potential there for them to still develop into something, but half the time we'll never know.

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I was reading the program from the Ireland v Sweden game at halftime ,a article about a squad from 87 which was made up of players from Liverpool,Man U ,Arsenal,Spurs,Celtic etc ...looking at the current squad its made up of players from lower prem to lower league players.Its a similar trait in Scotland.

Players from here used go over and get schooled at the top clubs,progress and turn into great players .Thats not happening now,as some international with 70 caps from some eastern european town is taking their spot in the squad and managers and clubs are under so much pressure they cant take the risk anymore.If Ronnie Whelan was 21 now ,he would not make it at Liverpool...he wouldn't get the time

The talent is there still,but players need playing time and top class coaching to mature ,they aint getting that nowadays.

 

I believe a great player like Whelan would have made it. He was good enough to break into one of the greatest club sides of all time, so he would have been more than good enough to get into premier league teams now.

 

There probably are young lads who were blocked by world class foreigners who could have been greats at those clubs, but if they had the talent and drive, they would have made it elsewhere.

 

As section says when was the last time you have seen young lads play on the streets? That is more the problem than the foreign players.

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When someone with Carra’s credibility and experience speaks out, his message demands to be heard.

 

Interntaionals, and international performers, have always mattered at Anfield. Clemence ,Keegan, Barnes, and Stevie G have all had their careers enhanced by international status, the foreign internationals too many to mention.

 

The underperformance of the England team is the responsibility of the FA, not the Pl. But the PL have created what amounts to a global league, based in England. If the game is about cash, the number of English players is irrelevant. But if football clubs are about communities, towns, cities and regions, it does.

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When someone with Carra’s credibility and experience speaks out, his message demands to be heard.

 

Interntaionals, and international performers, have always mattered at Anfield. Clemence ,Keegan, Barnes, and Stevie G have all had their careers enhanced by international status, the foreign internationals too many to mention.

 

The underperformance of the England team is the responsibility of the FA, not the Pl. But the PL have created what amounts to a global league, based in England. If the game is about cash, the number of English players is irrelevant. But if football clubs are about communities, towns, cities and regions, it does.

 

It's about cash. HTH.

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It's like Darwinism to an extent though isn't it? If an English player breaks through he's going to be pretty shit hot, rather than just making up the numbers. The calibre of player in the England squad is pretty average, but I don't think that's about a lack of opportunities in the Premiership, if they were good enough they'd get games. Are there any English players at Liverpool who people honestly believe could have made the grade at international level but never got given a shout because it was cheaper and easier to bring a foreign player in? There have been players who some fans have said would do that, but then they've disappeared to a lower league outfit and nobody has really shed any tears.

 

England had probably its best crop of players in my lifetime over the last 10-15 years or so and yet have turned in some of its worst ever performances, you can't blame foreigners in the game for that, you can blame the fact that most of them are gobshites and our managers were shit.

 

Also, any country which places Trevor Brooking in charge of youth development is going to be fucked.

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It's like Darwinism to an extent though isn't it? If an English player breaks through he's going to be pretty shit hot, rather than just making up the numbers. The calibre of player in the England squad is pretty average, but I don't think that's about a lack of opportunities in the Premiership, if they were good enough they'd get games. Are there any English players at Liverpool who people honestly believe could have made the grade at international level but never got given a shout because it was cheaper and easier to bring a foreign player in? There have been players who some fans have said would do that, but then they've disappeared to a lower league outfit and nobody has really shed any tears.

 

England had probably its best crop of players in my lifetime over the last 10-15 years or so and yet have turned in some of its worst ever performances, you can't blame foreigners in the game for that, you can blame the fact that most of them are gobshites and our managers were shit.

 

Also, any country which places Trevor Brooking in charge of youth development is going to be fucked.

 

Your first para is spot on. The reasons for the under-performance in English talent are many, our culture and our lack of qualified coaches rank highly though.

 

To dismiss Capello and Sven as shit is to ignore the credentials of two distinguished and highly successful managers, England did not fail because of them.

 

Brooking, with his career long association with West Ham and fine playing career is no lame duck. The problem is the structure of the FA. Take a look at the officials and officers and spot how many have played the game at a senior level.

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Your first para is spot on. The reasons for the under-performance in English talent are many, our culture and our lack of qualified coaches rank highly though.

 

To dismiss Capello and Sven as shit is to ignore the credentials of two distinguished and highly successful managers, England did not fail because of them.

 

Brooking, with his career long association with West Ham and fine playing career is no lame duck. The problem is the structure of the FA. Take a look at the officials and officers and spot how many have played the game at a senior level.

 

The problem is Brooking is completely unqualified to lead two culturally incompatible organizations, who are both pulling in opposite directions to a cohesive and coherent solution. Kicking a ball up and down upton park does not prepare you for that. Machiavelli would struggle. Brooking, waste of time. As results have demonstrated.

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I believe a great player like Whelan would have made it. He was good enough to break into one of the greatest club sides of all time, so he would have been more than good enough to get into premier league teams now.

 

There probably are young lads who were blocked by world class foreigners who could have been greats at those clubs, but if they had the talent and drive, they would have made it elsewhere.

 

As section says when was the last time you have seen young lads play on the streets? That is more the problem than the foreign players.

 

Its not that easy to bounce back ...when you've spent your life aiming towards a certain goal,get the big move to the club of your dreams,and then get cast out after not really getting a chance...That rejections hard to get over .I'm seeing it first hand every day .

 

As for Ronnie himself ,he even acknowledges that himself

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It's like Darwinism to an extent though isn't it? If an English player breaks through he's going to be pretty shit hot, rather than just making up the numbers. The calibre of player in the England squad is pretty average, but I don't think that's about a lack of opportunities in the Premiership, if they were good enough they'd get games. Are there any English players at Liverpool who people honestly believe could have made the grade at international level but never got given a shout because it was cheaper and easier to bring a foreign player in? There have been players who some fans have said would do that, but then they've disappeared to a lower league outfit and nobody has really shed any tears.

 

England had probably its best crop of players in my lifetime over the last 10-15 years or so and yet have turned in some of its worst ever performances, you can't blame foreigners in the game for that, you can blame the fact that most of them are gobshites and our managers were shit.

 

Also, any country which places Trevor Brooking in charge of youth development is going to be fucked.

 

How many years has Sturridge spent as first choice wherever he's been? You say its not for lack of opertunities yet our main striker at present has had to endure loan spells or moves away in order to get decent game time that he couldn't get at the the top level as he was behind Spanish,Argentinian and African internationals.

As for ending up nowhere after leaving Liverpool...its hard to bounce back when everything you've spent your life wanting has been pulled out from under you.

The blame aint with the players though ,Its with us supporters for not having patience with youth and for the win at all costs pressure we put on managers

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